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Everything posted by Ursus
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The Phoenicians probably sailed around Africa fairly early. But I've never heard of them going beyond that into the other hemishphere. I've heard theories that the Egyptians sailed to Central America, which is meant to explain why Central American Natives would have step pyramids similar to old Egypt. But it's just a theory, and I don't think it's a widely held one among the scholarly community. Mediterranean aside, Vikings did discover America around 1000CE, but they left no permanent settlements and their discovery was forgotten.
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And I think the Romans of the Republic and early Empire would look at our times and gape with astonishment at some of our own prejudices. Certainly the Romans had a different cultural construct than ours. But I'm not so sure it's automatically poorer by vitue of slavery and gladiatorial games. Official slavery in the West has only been out of style for a 140 years, anyway.
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He Who Did Rome It's Greatest Dis-service
Ursus replied to Hamilcar Barca's topic in Imperium Romanorum
Something tells me if Marc Antony (and Cleopatra) had won, Western civilization would have turned out differently, and most certainly not for the better. This guy was a drunkard, thought he was the god Dionysus, and was steeped in Oriental debauchery. And worst of all, from a Roman standpoint, he let himself be a fool for love and let an ambitious woman get her claws in him. The excesses of an empire run by Antony and Cleopatra would probably have exceeded that of Caligula, Nero and Commodus. -
I'm guessing a lot of these guys were marginalized in high school for their intellectual hobbies. Using those intellectual hobbies (like computers and software) to cause mischief is probably their way of getting back at the word, achieving a sense of power, etc.
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I hope I'm not adding to board sprawl, but it seems like there is a surging interest in Roman culture (literature, arts, architecture) and Daily life (eating, etc). Maybe a separate folder on Culture and Daily Life would be feasible in the near future.
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Well, the client-patron arrangement was one of the centerpeices of Roman society. Every morning the "clients" would meet with their "patron." They would show him respect and offer services. In exchange, the patron would provide the clients with money, food, gifts, protection. It was a social status symbol for a patron to have many clients. These client-patron relationships were interlocking - someone could be a patron to those on the lower end of the social scale while at the same time being a client to those on the higher end of the social scale. It seems everyone in Imperial Rome except the emperor himself was a client to someone higher and a patron to someone lower, and these set of relationships formed a kind of stability in the Roman world. It wasn't strictly a business relationship, though. It was also very social. It was political as well (we'll vote for you and in return we expect a few services when you're in office). It also formed the defining rational for traditional Roman religion (we honor you gods/spirits and in return we expect you to favor us). So where Romans stood in this social hierarchy was very important to them -- who served them and in turn whom they served. I supose it could be likened to the mafia where one offers services to a "don" or "godfather" in exchange for money and protection. However, it wasn't an exclusively Roman concept. The Celts had something like it and apparently so did the Germanics. I think a better correlation would be found to the Medieval concept of social hierarchy. The peasants were indebted to their local lords, who were in turn indebted to the major overlords, who in turn were indebted to Kings and Popes. When central government in the Roman West collapsed, it seemed liked the client-patron understandings of these various cultures found new expression in the social reality of the Middle Ages.
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I saw that documentary. The evidence presented is substantial enough I can't totally dismiss it out of hand.
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Most empires fall because of a dynamic between mounting internal decay and increasing external threats. This was certainly the case with the Roman West. The United States is probably in that situation, although one can quibble if we even have an empire as such to fall. I think the better question is will American influence and hegemony on the global stage erode in the coming decades. Was Rome's fall inevitable? I think the vast territory ruled by the Romans was bound to fall apart as a united geopolitical power. The West fragmented and evolved into the Medieval world. No surprise, really. They had an underdeveloped economy and culture, and they were in a less defensible position against the encroaching barbarian hordes. Although since many of the barbarian tribes took on aspects of Roman law, government and religion (especially since the Roman army was heavily Germanized anyway by that point) the legacy of Rome lived on in Continental Europe. England, however, would find most of its Roman culture obliterated by Anglo-Saxon tribal laws. However, the more defensible, richer, and culturally advanced Roman East survived quite well, and may have survived far longer if it hadn't been crippled by Latin crusaders.
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Long may her glory inspire us, and may we better live up to it.
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Agreed with what PP said. Culture and especially social class mattered more than ethnicity to the Romans. Most Roman slaves would have look liked their masters - Mediterranean complexion. Of course, their were fair haired Celts and Germans in the mix, and some black skinned Africans.
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I haven't seen the world in such hysterics since ... well, since Bush was reelected. I know a lot of people who think the Inquisitions have returned. Jeesh. Most of these people aren't Catholic and many aren't even Christian, so I ask them why they even care what he thinks. It's all politics, I guess. The Western world seems to have gotten a bit "conservative" since 9-11-01, and some groups seem to be in absolute hysterics and histrionics over it. Personally, not being Catholic I really don't care one way or the other. Congratulations to Cardinal Ratzinger. May you imbue the ancient title of Pontifex Maximus with honor. I do find the Nazi thing overblown. It seems like no one who is German can escape that stigma. And usually the insults are thrown by types who otherwise decry stereotypes and labeling people. Eh. Hypocrisy. But people are comparing this guy to Senator/ Emperor Palpatine from "Star Wars." "Papaltine" they are calling him. I admit I did get a chuckle out of that because he does kind of look like him. He has the misfortune of coming to power right before the launch of the last great Star Wars orgy...
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I'm sure it was known to happen. The literary example between Achilles and Patroclus is indicative of such things. But sex was often about power, pleasure, and procreation rather than love. And even if someone was an honest to gods homosexual, they were still expected to take a wife, reproduce, and comply with normal cultural expectations. The idea that sex and marriage should always be about love seems to be a rather modern one. A lot of Ancients seemed to have though that romantic love was a form of madness that was potentially dangerous (all those myths where Cupid shoots someone with an arrow, causing them to fall in love, often end badly).
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In Greek society it was accepted that boys of adolescent age could take male lovers, and this was often with older males acting as mentors. Before someone raises the subject of pedophilia, it should be noted these boys were pubescent, not the pre-pubescent children that most pedophiles concern themselves with. In the military, sexual relations between males were common. Especially in Sparta. It was thought that men who slept with each other would fight together as great comrades. Kind of ironic given modern debates in the American military about whether or not homosexuality decreases unit morale. When they were older they were still expected to take a wife and breed, even in Sparta. Greek males were bisexual rather than homosexual.
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http://dominae.fws1.com/ "Yet the position of Roman women as we now understand it was, within the limits of a male-dominated world, comparatively proactive and respected. Although most admired in the traditional roles of wife and mother, Roman women in many ways suffered far fewer restrictions than women in other contemporary cultures. Perhaps more importantly, some compensation for lack of a woman
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I'm not sure if the ancient Roman economy could truly be equated with modern capitalism. Most of the inflation came about because every time there was a civil war, the winning general minted new coins to pay his troops, thus debasing the currency.
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"entrance to hell?" BTW, the Greek underworld has none of the connotations of the Abrahamic hell, and neither Charon nor Hades is anything approaching a Satan figure.
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Worst Historical Movie Of All Time
Ursus replied to pompeius magnus's topic in Hora Postilla Thermae
I liked "Spartacus" even though it wasn't the most historically film. It was well written, well acted, well directed, well produced. It was, in other words, a good movie. Troy was just a bad movie, I think. I think most of what Hollywood has churned out in the last 30 years is just plain bad. Bad writing, bad acting, bad directing. The production values are sometimes great. But that's all movies are any more. Special effects and brutal action designed to stimulate the brain dead masses. Glorified video games, really. But YMMV. -
You make a very fair point, Marcus. However, I personally have no emotional involvement in either proving or disproving those particular texts. Hesiod, however, may get my juices flowing...
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Eh. When the Gnostic gospels were found, the church just shrugged and declared them non authentic. That's probably what will happen here. But one "religion" that might be impacted by the discovery is Greco-Roman mythology. We know of all the myths that we have, it's only a fraction of what survived. The Illiad was simply the climax of a much longer Trojan War cycle. If we can discover some of the pieces of the lost epic, Western Literature will be rewritten.
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Lock down until PP can ban the troll [done, and pointless posts removed, PP]
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Andrianople: Was The Legion Outdated Or...
Ursus replied to a topic in Gloria Exercitus - 'Glory of the Army'
This thread locked until PP can ban the troll [done, and pointless posts deleted... PP] -
Indeed ... a second Rennaisance ... its good to be a classics buff right now.
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if you find anything, let us know. It's an interesting subject.
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Worst Historical Movie Of All Time
Ursus replied to pompeius magnus's topic in Hora Postilla Thermae
Troy, without a doubt. About half an hour into the movie, after Achilles had lobbed off the head of a statue of what was supposed to be APollo, I turned off the DVD and never went back. I though the cheesy and woefully inaccurate 1970's movie "Clash of the Titans" was a better stab at Greek mythology than "Troy" ... -
http://www.theoi.com/Khaos/Kharon.html