Ursus

Is it possible the truth lies in the middle? Maybe civilization didn't "collapse" but the "Evolution" was a rather traumatic one? I'm just posing some possibilities. I need to closely read Ward-Perkins work as well as those who take the alternate view before I can strongly argue the theory.

The problem is many of America's trading partners, like the EU, are starting to accept commodities measured only in metric. And when foreign tourists visit America they have trouble converting metric to imperial. Keeping us on the imperial system isolates us from the world economy. BTW, Arvioustus, I don't want to seem like I keep moving your threads -- but when the conversation starts to blend from Ancient Rome to Modern America, we tend to move topics to the "Afterhours" forum. I will let the topic here for now, but the second someone uses this thread as a poor excuse to criticize American foreign policy or American domestic policy, off it goes.

Thus topic was moved to the Humanitas forum and merged with the poisened wells topic. Please discuss it there.

I think we have touched on this before in a variety of posts. Ever since Alexander shattered the Greek city-state in favor of the universal empire, the trend was to replace local, communal deities with universal soteriological cults. The astrology and magic of West Asia, the belief in resurrection and savior gods from Egypt, the Pantheism and Idealism of Greek philosophy - all merged into one religious goo. Hellenistic religion was born. From the Roman perspective, this started slowly penetrating into Roman society in the middle-late Republic from Hellenistic sailors and emigrants. It reached a critical mass after West Asia and North Africa (i.e the Hellenistic kingdoms) were formally integrated into the Empire shortly before the beginning of the Common Era. In a world where one's home was increasingly the known civilized world rather than a little self-contained town, a local god thought living in his quaint home-town temple might not be able to help you if you were thousands of miles from home on war or business. But a truly universal god who lived in the heavens did not share local prejudice and could help you anywhere you were. Furthermore, if this god or goddess was armed with powerful magick and had the ability to cheat death and fate, he or she might be a powerful friend to have on your side. Christianity grew in this framework, and was able to realize the logic of the new reality better than most of its competitors. Partly through outright assimilation, as you eluded to.

Well, they were great engineers, which took some amount of applied mathematics. Someone even invented a workable steam engine in the reign of Tiberius. It merely wasn't put to good use, and was forgotten. I think the Romans could have discovered electricity; they might merely not have know what to do with it (if it had been invented in the reign of Commodus, he would have used it to shock people for a laugh, and that would have been the end of it). I don't wish to argue the assertion that Arabic numbers are more efficient than Roman numerals. But as others have pointed out, geopolitical realities had a stronger cause for the fall (or "evolution" if you prefer) of the empire than their lack of pure science compared to the Greeks. For that matter, why did the Greeks fall to Macedonians and Romans if they were such sound science students? Geopolitics.

To paraphrase what Nietzsche said about music, life without Amazon.com would be a mistake.

So shall it be written, so shall it be done.

Civil wars are generally a bad thing. Christianity's effects on the empire should be discussed in the religion folder. There are some threads on the topic already.

Several similar threads have been merged, thanks to the nifty moderation features. Enjoy.

Heh. In some cases, those stolen treasures are probably better preserved in the museums of the imperialist countries than in the countries of origin. There was a thread a while back on this forum about some ancient Obelisk Mussolini stole from the Etheopeans. The Italian goverment returned it - and now it's sitting in a crate somewhere guarded by some village boy, as the home country can't get its act together. Likewise, the Greeks want the British Museum to return the remains of the Parthenon. Given the historical antipathy of the Greek Orthodox Church to pagan relics, and given that church's influence in Greek society, I feel more comfortable if the Parthenon relics remain in London. :-)

They shouldn't necessarily be so, I agree. I posted something like this on the "Cleopatra" thread. Sometimes "scholarship" is nothing more than the agenda of the scholar. But whereas you enjoy radical reinterpretations, I'm a little more skeptical of them in this overly politically correct age.

The Romans were a religious people, though they went about a religion with a typically practical flair. Furthermore, the meaning of religion changed as the centuries elapsed. Here on UNRV we embody the same practical and generally tolerant attitude demonstrated by our cultural forebears. Agnostics, Pagans and Christians can all find something to admire in Rome regardless of their respective religious preferences (or lack thereof). The UNRV Temple of Rome is dedicated to the scholarly and objective survey of the various religious cults that impacted the peoples of the Roman Empire. The Temple does not promote one cult over another. It does not deny or confirm the external validity of religion in general or of any particular religion. It merely seeks to elucidate and appreciate the place of religious cults within the cultural and historical evolution of Roman society. Topics relevant to the Temple include: * Any of the various pagan/polytheist cults of Rome, from the monarchy through the late Empire. * Any of the various pagan/polytheist faiths of the subject peoples of the Roman Empire * Early Christianity, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and in particular Roman Catholicism * Judaism in the time of the Roman Empire * Various philosophical and mystical schools which, while not constituting religions in the strictest sense of the word, were associated with the various faiths and sometimes practiced as a substitute for them. All inquiries into these religions should be done with an objective and neutral eye to history. Religion can be a contentious issue, and for that reason the Temple concerns itself only with scholarly assessments of the various faiths. The Temple asks that those with agendas militantly for or against a particular religion exercise those agendas outside the Temple walls. This is a place of learning and fellowship under the banner of Rome.

Thanks to all above. I may investigate some of your suggestions as time and money allow.

I don't have any strong opinions on this topic, but I found Livy a bit dry and overly detailed for my tastes. However, I did like his first book and some of his cynical commentaries on the mythological foundation stories.

Looking for insightful biographies of the following individuals: Sulla Julius Caesar Augustus Sejanus (if there is any?) Vespasian Trajan Hadrian Aurelius Diocletian Constantine Would prefer modern authors, not the primary sources. Thanks.

To be honest, I think people like Stern and Robertson couldn't exist without each other. They feed off each other's excesses. The arch-conservative and the counter-culture shock jock - like black and white squares on a checker board.

Let's not get into semantic quibbles. In a dictatorship or even a cabinet there is still a chief executive (dictator, prime minister, premier, chancellor, president, Grand High Poobah, etc) who retains something of a final say, even if surrounded by advisors, cronies, deputies and underlings. Was there a recognized final say in either of the Triumvirates? No.

My favorite movie in the "bad but enjoyable" category is Conan the Barbarian. Half of it is one of the greatest sound tracks ever. The other half is that Conan is not your typical Hollywood hero. He is out for revenge, not justice. He doesn't forgive his enemies; he chops off their heads. Of course, the miserable sequel "Conan the Destroyer" destroyed any hope of a film franchise. Among television, my "bad but enjoyable" nomination goes to a forgotten American television series called "Unsolved Mysteries." Before there was "X-files", Robert Stack was hosting a series exploring everything from unsolvable crimes to alleged paranormal experiences.

It only worked as long as the parties involved could place mistrust and personal pride aside long enough to work toward common goals. A committee really isn't the best way to organize a state. I believe at the end of the day someone has to be a top dog, or at least a first among equals.

I think there is a thread to this on the Ethics Humanities folder started by a former personality. I think it comes down to a point of pride and a show of imperial power. Which is fine. Psychology is a part of warfare.

Your average idiot on the street who knows nothing else about Rome has probably still heard about Julius Caesar. Ergo, love him or hate him, he is the towering figure of Roman history. And I'm sure if some remnant of his genius is lingering about the earthly life, he's having a good chuckle to himself at causing so much controversy 2000 years later.

To answer the original question, I've always admired Caesar and Augustus for their respective abilities. However, Augustus does not seem to have had much of a sense of a humor, and Caesar could take his own magnificence a little too seriously. I think I might have more empathy for Vespasian's singular cynical wit. He would have been an interesting person for whom to serve as an underling.

Glad everyone enjoyed the review. It's a very interesting subject. Especially with some of the recent political debates in Western society over sexuality.

Not my cup of tea. But don't mistake me for a prude. I watch "Family Guy" which is known for its off beat humor.

Some threads from the other forums from the past 3 or 4 months (that's as far back as I cared to go) have been moved to the newly reminted "humanities forum." If you're looking for a missing thread, it may have ended up here.