Ursus

If you're still around, happy 16th.

Oh. Well, I like the relative lack of racism as moderns understand the concept. The incorporation of locals into imperial structures. The relative religious tolerance (in Pagan Rome, at least). And most of all the emphasis on such values as dignitas, pietas and auctoritas as the measure of a man. And sewers. Can't beat a good sewer system.

She has a political conscious. How wonderful. Now let's have her do something really useful like fitting back into a pair of daisy dukes.

I guess we'll just have to read the book to examine the evidence and arguments leading to this surprising conclusion. Which, of course, is the whole point. Congratulations to Mr. Dalby on his forthcoming book. It is an honor to have a noted author as a regular forum member. I will of course mention the book to some people in the Hellenic pagan community. They'll be among the most interested readers.

I wouldn't do anything different than what the Romans did at their best: offer the luxury of what we might call a "consumer culture" to people who don't have it through trade and diplomacy. After a few generations they'll become quite pliable. Subsequent military force needed to pacify would be minimal. Once conquered, the local elites are encouraged to become part of the governing machinery, and local lads can sign up for military service. Let most of the local customs and religions intact, only stamp out what is clearly a threat to stability. Collect reasonable taxes and uphold the law. This strategy seems to work quite well. The Celts living in southern Gaul were already partially Romanized thanks to decades of Roman trade. Some tribal leaders even furnished cavalry to Caesar. Once conquered in the full military sense, the local elites there were more than willing and able to become decurions and equestrians.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in the actual existence of deities, I believe the cultural development of religion has more plausible explanations than alien ontology (and for now I am going to conveniently ignore those New Age religions which posit beliefs in extra-terrestrials as angels or deities or "spirit guides"). Stargate? You would think a culture that built interdimensional worm-hole technology could find better ways to mine its ore than using illiterate slaves and pack animals. And the androgynous actor who played "Ra" - he gives me the creeps for some reason. Regardless, I did watch the sci-fi channel serialization before it became stale. Now BattleStar Galatica intrigues me. I'm interested in finding out just what these Greek-like gods of the Colonials really are, and more importantly who the monotheist god of the Cylons is.

I'm confused. What's this thread about? Is this a sequal to the computer game "Rome: Total War?"

I do believe they would enjoy the Eisenhower Interstate highway system. Cheers.

Indeed. Before UNRV hit the ground running it was probably the best collection of Romano-phile info on the web. I still reference it for people who ask me about Roman culture, history and religion - though of course only as an afterthought to this site. :-)

Fascinating if true...

I think it would be virtually impossible, and even undesirable, to erect the particular mechanisms of the Roman Empire on the world today. However, I'm of the opinion Ancient Rome still has much to teach us moderns, and we could do well to internalize it. I find many things in the Roman world view - especially in pre-Theodosius Rome - preferable to the current modern viewpoints. I also appreciate the fact the Roman Empire was the last time the Western world was anything resembling a united front, and thus forms a common foundation for Europeans and their former colonies. Not to start an argument on modern politics, but I really do believe the West could stand a bit of Roman unity in the immediate future. These arguments that Europeans have amongst themselves, or that Europeans have with Americans, seem miniscule compared to the West's difference with Sinic and especially Islamic cultures. Thus I look to the Romans as cultural forebears, but a resurrected empire is a pipe dream.

Well, on the religion side of things I think you can break it down into several stages, though the change between stages is gradual. 1) Early Roman Religion - Domestic cult and Italic agricultural deities 2) Increasing Hellenization - The Twelve "Dii Consentes" modeled after the Greek Olympians 3) Increasing Orientalization - Greco-Oriental gods become popular, culminating with "Sol Invictus" as the patron of the state 4) Christianization - from Constantine and beyond The military I know less about it, but it seems you would have more than three stages - from very early Rome, to the late Republic, to the Principate, and to the Dominate. Thus I have no idea what your professor is getting at.

My only comment: the "paganism" he was promoting was something of a fanatical flavor that wasn't so far from the Christianity he professed to dislike.

Interesting. If I may ask, how much do these types of coin cost anyway?

Yes, it's mindless. But, well, the masses are usually mindless. And there's nothing wrong with being rich in my world view. If someone gave me five million dollars, I'd advertise anything. I'd even do a commercial for feminine hygiene products.

I really don't know how one "steals" gods anyways. Perhaps trade them like any other commodity, but not steal. But without rehashing my essay that PP posted, let me offer two points here 1) The Greeks and Romans were both heirs of an Indo-European civilization and already had some religious things in common - chiefly the figures of Zeus/Jupiter and Hestia/Vesta. 2) The Romans actually "stole" many of their gods from the Etruscans, who were themselves fairly Hellenized. The Hellenes in turn "stole" some of their gods from their Semitic neighbors. In other words, the Roman religion evolved within the context of a greater Mediterranean society where various cultures were influencing each other.

I'd say the crucial point though is that Augustus positioned himself as the defender of Roman tradition. To the extent Christianity, or at least certain elements of it, came across as a virulent counter-culture cult, some token crackdowns on the Christians would come across more as being a champion of order rather a cruel tyrant.

Please do so. I am need of ideas for the Preaefectus Book give-a-way.

Here a map. There a map. Everywhere a map map. And don't forget UNRV is selling a Grade A map these days as well. This conversation has served its usefullness. Locked.

Well, I'm glad you liked it. The late empire was never my forte, but lately I'm been exploring new ground. I'm intrigued by new possibilities. And maybe I'm just getting tired of Late Republic bru-ha-has. Cheers.

I thought of another slogan. I am Roman. Out of my way!

I own this book as well. Valuable for Hermes fans.

Most likely. If he didn't care much for the effect of Egyptian cults on traditional Roman society, he would not have tolerated the Christian perspective.

During most of the Republic there had been no government as moderns would understand the term. There were no fully staffed departments or agencies whose existence continued independently of the political situation. Instead the Republican ideal had been to elect certain magistrates with various powers to carry out the token duties of the city-state government. The leading posts (Consuls and Praetors) combined military and civil responsibilities. If elections could not occur for whatever reason to bring these individuals to the helm, there was no government in any meaningful sense of the word.... You can read the full article here

Romans do it better. Someone needs to print that on a T-Shirt.