Ludovicus

I meant only to underscore the way each administration used/uses the public forum to cloak their very radical agendas in traditional garb. I grant that Bush may lack the initiative and brain power of Augustus.

Thank you.

Has anyone noticed how both Bush and Augustus used the media of their times to portray themselves as the defender of traditional values while all the while ushering in radical changes? Just look at the Ara Pacis and the Aeneid, Augustan propaganda that paint Octavian fully in line with cherished Roman "mores." Then Bush's use of Evangelical Protestantism and flag waving to cover the fact that his agenda is one of the most radical in US history, e.g. his refusal to obey laws enacted by Congress. From the Boston Globe: WASHINGTON -- President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution. Link: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...ndreds_of_laws/ N.B. Both the Ara Pacis and the Aeneid are both milestones of human achievement. Nonetheless, their reason for being was to promote Octavian's political agena: the end of the Republic.

Here are four books that you may find helpful: The Transformation of the Roman World: AD 400-900, edited by Leslie Webster and Michelle Brown. Rome in Late Antiquity, Bertand Lancon Museo Nazionale Romano Crypta Balbi (English addition) Electa The Later Roman Empire, Averil Cameron Best of luck. This is a very interesting period of Roman history.

There is an archaeological site in Rome, Crypta Balbi, that has been occupied continuously from Republican times. You may find articles on CB that will help you with your assignment. From Wikipedia: "Crypta Balbi Inaugurated in the Campus Martius in 2001, it houses archaeological remains the ancient Roman quadriporticus of the Theatre of Lucius Cornelius Balbus (minor) (including an impressive reconstruction of a stucco arch) and later remains built over it. The first section (" Archeology and history of an urban landscape") presents the results of the archeological excavations conducted on the site from 1981, including the theatre and the nearby statio annonae. A second section (" Rome from antiquity to the middle ages.") is the Museum of Medieval Rome and illustrates the life and transformations of Rome as a whole between the 5th and 10th centuries AD."

What's fascinating about the Domus Valeriorum is that it apparently survived into post the Imperial period as a hostel run by Christians for foreigners. Here we have a building with roots in the Republic (via the Valerii family) surviving in the Dark Ages. Wonder if there are any other Roman constructions outside churches, Forum buidlings, and a few notable temples that could boast such a long existence. I'm willing to be informed.

What "dignitas" does Berlusconi possess who has called Italian voters opposed to him "coglioni" or pr*cks! http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?pa...le=353181&lng=1 As for him withdrawing Italian troops from Iraq, that reflects the majority opinion in Italy, both within Berlusconi's coalition and without.

"Archaeologists have found paintings and mosaics from a previously unknown section of the Domus Valeriorum, one of ancient Rome's grandest homes." From the most recent issue of "Archaeology" http://www.archaeology.org/0605/abstracts/villa.html

All of my grandparents and their ancestors (as far as we know) were born in Italian villages. Until recently, the values of this way of life have been at the heart of Italian culture. (Italy's population decline has left many villages half empty or even worse. ) As a Latin major in college and now as a reader in Roman history I can't remember ever hearing of a Roman village. One gets the impression that the Romani either lived in cities and towns of marble or in villas. What do we know about Roman village life?

Could you give us title and more about this book. J. N. Adams, /Bilingualism and the Latin language/. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003. Very expensive ... (I don't remember the exact price, I got a review copy.) There was a review by Mary Beard in the /TLS/ (Times Literary Supplement) 13 June 2003; and I wrote a review in /The Linguist/ vol. 43 no. 4 (2004). You would probably find reviews on the Web if you search for the title. Adams is a specialist in the language(s) of Roman inscriptions, and examines in great detail a large number of inscriptions that provide some evidence of bilingualism. If the book has a fault, it is this: written for established classicists, some of whom have not the least familiarity with sociolinguistics or any sympathy with it (and that's not true of Adams himself), it starts from the assumption that the existence of bilingualism has to be proved. Of course, he does prove it; but in doing so very thoroughly from the documents, he hardly gets round to considering the likely extent of bilingualism in the Empire beyond the documents. I am writing this from memory now -- it is two years since I reviewed the book. It is a very impressive piece of work, and some of the individual documents are fascinating. Thanks so much for the thumbnail sketch of this work. It sounds very interesting. I can probably get it thru interlibrary loan. I remember in Augustine's "Confessions" he mentions that Punic was still spoken in the hinterlands of North Africa.

In the first two centuries of the Empire there will have been a massive amount of bilingualism and multilingualism: J. D. Adams has recently written a splendid book on this. Could you give us title and more about this book.

What do you mean by "available"? Available in written form, spoken, or both? Perhaps you could add Illyrian to your list. Modern Albanian seems to be a modern descendant. What about Coptic? What were the Egyptians in the villages speaking under Roman rule? Basque never died out so you could add that one as well.

Here's a large website on Samnium in English and Italian: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/davmonac/sanniti/indexen.html

If my memory serves me, corked wine is a relatively new phenomenon. Post 1600's? If Roman wine wasn't corked it may have been a drink totally different from what we think of as wine.

I'd like to hear from member who've been to San Vincenzo or who know if the site is open to tourists. I tried to gain access in 2003 but was told that the excavations were closed. San Vincenzo al Volturno, located in the province of Isernia, Italy, has recently come to light as a major post-Classical site. Founded in the 8th century as a monastery, San Vincenzo developed quickly as an engine for repopulating what is today the region of Molise. For more information see: http://www.sanvincenzoalvolturno.it/ For details on the excavations at S. Vincenzo see "Light in the Dark Ages: The Rise and Fall of San Vincenzo Al Volturno" by Richard Hodges

The Roman culture did not disappear in England when the legions left, just a major part of the economy, the culture remained and would remain until the late 6th/early 7th century. I would assume they wished for the legions to return, when your whole livelihood depends on those men to purchase your goods, frequent your stores etc, it is a major deal, just look at communites now a days when army bases close... Good point about army bases closing and the local economy. Ward-Perkins, "The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization," paints a very interesting picture of a Roman town on the outskirts of the empire when, due to the chaos of the 5th century, the soldiers pay fails to arrive. The town reverts back to a barter economy. Don't miss this book if your interests lie in "The Fall."

Thanks. I agree too!

Your paper will be easier to write if you consider asking yourself more specific questions. Consequences for whom, for example? For Italy? For the Eastern Empire? For the new barbarian successor states? For the city of Rome? For the Papacy? For international trade? For the Latin language? For the Roman elites? For standard of living? For the production of luxury items? For literacy? For paganism? You need to ask yourself more questions about those "consequences" so that you have a paper that's doable. The way you're asking the question now would require an answer the size of an encyclopedia.

Do you mean the "Pantheon" ? Please give more details about this fantasy. Why would the Romans have made voyages of discovery across the Atlantic? They had plenty of rich Asian countries to fantasize about. I can see an expedition to conquer India. What would have driven them across the cold seas? Columbus was driven by gold and spices. Please give us a reason and your fantasy will have some life.

I'm wondering why we see "Altissimu" and "Altissimo" in the same prayer. I can't detect any grammatical reason for the use of two different endings. Any help? Why would St. Francis or a copyist make the mistake of using two different spellings. There's got to be a reason, don't you think. By the way, I'm not a trained linguist but became interested in the subject way back in high school. As a Latin student doing my homework at my Abruzzese grandparents' home I would hear the most interesing Latinisms in their speech. They would say "fradre" for brother, "is" for him, and "a logh" when asking me to move anything "(to" there).

Thanks so much for the resources you quote. What insights do you have about this astounding poem, linguistic and otherwise? It's always knocked my socks off. Doesn't seem in the mainstream of medieval Roman Catholic prayers. St. Francis' poem seems to come out of nowhere. and it's clearly Italian, not Latin. The Latin case system isn't evident or am I missing something. More, please!

from the site: http://www.liberliber.it/biblioteca/f/fran...tml/cantico.htm What a lovely prayer, simple and humble. The Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi: Altissimu, onnipotente bon Signore, Tue so' le laude, la gloria e l'honore et onne benedictione. Ad Te solo, Altissimo, se konfano, et nullu homo

Oh what I would give to see some 6th-10th century Rumanian documents!! In "Latin and the Romance Languages" Mario Pei states that the first record of writen Rumanian may be the phrase "Torna, fratre," which appears in a Byzantine account of a Thracian campaign in the year 587. Then we have to wait until the sixteenth century for "satisfactory Rumanian texts." I recommend the Pei book now long out of print but still available in many public and university libraries. He makes the history of Latin and its descendant languages easy to understand for the lay person.

"Food insecure" doesn't mean getting food from soup kitchens or going hungry even occasionally. My mistake again, it's 25 million folks getting donated food. I stand corrected by the Christian Science Monitor: "America's Second Harvest, the nation's largest charitable food distribution network, is now providing help to more than 25 million people..." Go here for entire article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0223/p02s02-ussc.html That's NOT evidence that we dictated that the Iraqis pay the costs of the invasion. The quote only says that the Iraqis COULD pay for some of the costs of running their own state. There's an enormous difference between the two. Now, do you have any actual evidence that Iraqi oil revenues were diverted to the Pentagon budget? Or were paid into ANY US government account? You're right. I don't have any factual evidence. But see what Bush's press secretary had to say about plans for making Iraq pay for the invasion and reconstruction: "Q Back on the cost issue. If the U.S. does not get a second resolution, does the President believe that U.S. taxpayers will disproportionately bear the burden of the reconstruction costs in Iraq? MR. FLEISCHER: Well, the reconstruction costs remain a very -- an issue for the future. And Iraq, unlike Afghanistan, is a rather wealthy country. Iraq has tremendous resources that belong to the Iraqi people. And so there are a variety of means that Iraq has to be able to shoulder much of the burden for their own reconstruction." Go here for entire press conference. Threat against Iran from Bush's "all options are the table" speech in August, 2005 Go here for speech exerpt: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...n-nuclear_x.htm "Options on the table" is not a threat of force nor are economic sanctions a threat of force. To equate economic sanctions with a threat of force would mean that any time I engage in boycott, I'm using force. By this logic, Martin Luther King and Gandhi would be an imperialists! If you read the entire article you'll see that "all options" means "all options." It's clear that Bush is not limiting any of his choices, from sanctions to attack. Perhaps this back and forth is getting a bit tedious for others in the thread. To tie this discussion to that of imperialism, an important topic when studying Roman history, I maintain that the averag citizen of an empire eventually pays dearly for imperialism. The small farmer in Italy paid dearly when tribute grain began to arrive from conquered Egypt. If I'm not mistaken, these small farmers mostly disappeared as social class in the Empire. At the cost of a billion dollars a week, the occupation of Iraq is taking its toll on the average US citizen. Enough said.

What is your source on this? Sorry, my mistake. There were 31 million "food insecure" households in the US in 1999. See US Department of Agriculture report: http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr8/ From the White House's website: Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz: “There’s a lot of money to pay for this that doesn’t have to be U.S. taxpayer money, and it starts with the assets of the Iraqi people…and on a rough recollection, the oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years… Go here for the source: http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/iraqquotes_web.htm or this? or this? "Today, I have signed an Executive Order implementing sanctions on Syria..." From Presiden Bush's May 2004 statement. Go here for the entire piece: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0040511-11.html Threat against Iran from Bush's "all options are the table" speech in August, 2005 Go here for speech exerpt: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...n-nuclear_x.htm What do you think a US base in Iraq is meant to convey to these two countries? These claims sound like pure propaganda from someone who doesn't know the facts. Propaganda from the White House's website and from USA Today?