Ludovicus

I don't have a source for you that outlines the basic tenets of Islam. Nonetheless, there are books in English that highlight the positive and creative aspects of Muslim civilization. Here are three that can be found on Amazon.com: 1. "Aristotle's Children: How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and Illuminated the Middle Ages" by Richard E. Rubenstein 2. "A Vanished World: Muslims, Christians, and Jews in Medieval Spain," by Chris Lowney 3. "The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain" by Maria Rosa Menocal Islam occupies a very special historical niche. Muslims preserved and then reintroduced Aristotle's works to the West after many of them had been forgotten by post-Roman societies. Although the Arabs conquered Spain and imposed their civilization there, for many years there was a tolerance among the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim populations that was hardly ever seen in contemporary Catholic Europe.

Here's another view from Archaeology Magazine: "Rome

From Mary Beard's blog, her link to more photos of the site and interior of the supposed Lupercal, all from the Italian Ministry of Cultural Properties: http://www.beniculturali.it/sala/dettaglio...,cs&Id=2579 Enjoy.

LOL Reminds me of that painting in the Vatican Palace " triumph of Christianity " No subtle symbolism here! I'm not a cheerleader for the demise of Christianity, being a Christian myself. My original post under this thread was to argue for a novel marker for the beginning of medieval Rome, i.e. the loss of the Cave of the Lupercale. What do UNRVers think?

When a culture forgets its history & sacred founding places doesn't that signal a qualitative change? Would the loss of the Cave of the Lupercale, recently discovered by Italian archaeologists, have marked for ancient Roman culture a significant milestone on the road to post Antiquity? I can see one of the 6th century popes attending the sealing off of the cave and saying "That's the end of THAT." A recently discovered cave under or very near the palace of Augustus may be the site of the Cave of the Lupercale, believed by many today to have been the ancient shrine of Roman Antiquity. A cave of this type was revered by the Romans as the place where the she wolf (lupa) suckled Romulus and Remus.

Yes, I'm astounded by this news, too. I'm curious to find out when the last visits were paid to the shrine, i.e when it was lost. What common history did the cave share with the palace of Augustus? The first emperor was a master propagandist. Of course, he would have chosen to build his palace on the spot of Rome's founding. The Italian newpaper "La Repubblica" carries an article with a few more details. Here's the link: http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11/sezioni/s...olo-e-remo.html According to the article, the cult of the Lupercale was still practiced in the time of Pope Gelasius I. If you don't read Italian, perhaps your Latin or Spanish will serve you here. Here's a link from "Qultures" on the find with its own link to Italian sources: http://www.qultures.com/Articles/2007/Nove...1120071234.aspx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7104330.stm From the BBC: "Italian archaeologists say they have found the long-lost underground grotto where ancient Romans believed a female wolf suckled the city's twin founders. The cave believed to be the Lupercal was found near the ruins of Emperor Augustus' palace on the Palatine hill. The 8m (26ft) high cave decorated with shells, mosaics and marble was found during restoration work on the palace. " Link above shows two photos of the highly decorated interior of the Lupercal cave. Seems that no one has entered the cave so far due to fears of its collapse.

" The cross-shaped limestone cemetery was discovered in the Nasiriya area in the remote Hasaka province, some 440 miles northeast of the capital Damascus and contained coins, pottery shards and bracelets dating to the later Aramaic era, Al-Thawra newspaper reported." "Just on Tuesday, an even older cemetery from the 2nd century A.D. was discovered in the famed ruins of Palmyra, one of the region's most impressive sites from Classical antiquity." http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/scie...vqh=ht_cemetery

What a fascinating topic. Can someone give us a list of the specific works of Aristotle that are lost. I seem to remember in "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco that Aristotle's work on comedy was one.

Salve - Unless building were wrecked, this would only mean

What US "coalition" ? 90 percent of the troops in Iraq are US. The use of the word "coalition" by the White House is disingenuous, to say the least.

Saints Serge and Bacchus were soldiers in the late Roman army. The circumstances of their lives might help your research. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/f...f2mc/serge.html

Ah, that would explain it. I've never been able to get to the museum before noon. Is it any good? I've just returned from Italy and Ostia Antica. The museum is excellent with a great collection of marbles from the ancient city. It also does a nice job of explaining the post classical history of the site. Ostia has been very picked over since the middle ages. The British, French and other continental powers arrived to haul off many statues. Mussolini's use of the excavations to add imperial luster to his regime is well documented by the museum. Just as in the Roman Forum, in Ostia he obliterated the early medieval layers of excavations in the rush for imperial treasures. The guides posted above in this area of the UVRV forum were very helpful in figuring out how to get to Ostia Antica from my hotel room. Yes, it only cost one euro. You go from the Rome metro to the Ostia train with the same ticket. The museum serves very adequate fare. They had a very good choice of dishes in addition to the ever present pannini. This museum takes a mid day break. Don't miss Ostia Antica if you have some time to spend in Rome!

What an interesting topic. Does this help: http://www.litencyc.com/php/adpage.php?id=2982 Quoted: Soldier Saints and Holy Warriors by John Edward Damon Image: Book cover for Soldier Saints and Holy Warriors Ashgate, 2003 Hardback. ISBN: 0 7546 0473 X Christian authors of the Late Antique period deliberately set themselves the ambitious goal of revolutionizing the world of Latin letters, particularly concerning the questions of warfare and sanctity. In this new study, John Damon explores how one of these writers, Sulpicius Severus, created in his account of the life of St. Martin of Tours an anti-heroic literary model that reflected the new spiritual, political, and social realities of a Roman society in transformation from a pluralistic polytheism to univocal monotheism. Focusing on the body of early English Christian literature from the arrival of Roman Christianity in England through the period of the Crusades, Damon demonstrates the persistence of Sulpicius's model, despite obvious differences in the representation of saints and warriors in the literature of early England. Between the pious, peaceful saints and willing martyrs of late antiquity and the chivalric Christian heroes of the Middle Ages seems to lie an unbridgeable gulf; yet Damon shows how the two ideals presented intertwining and competing visions of Christian heroism throughout the period. Hagiography is the primary literary genre he examines to document the changing ethos from rejection of warfare to formal accommodation with and eventually active participation in wars considered "just" or "holy. " From Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica, through the works of Alcuin and

Gratias tibi ago! I've prints from your suggested website. Very helpful.

I've been to Ostia several times between 2003 and 2005 but found the museum closed on every occasion. There seems to be a distinct lack of funding, which is also visible in the preservation of the city. That said, it would be a pretty daunting task to pull off, especially given the limited number of visitors. It's a real shame, because Ostia ranks right up there with the best Italy has to offer. So, although things may have changed in the mean time, you'd better bring along all the information you might need. The mosaics are preserved in situ. And as I said before, bring a good, detailed map. There are many hard to find gems (like the mithraeums, synagogue, imperial palace) that you're likely to miss otherwise. If you go on a week day, you'll have the place to yourself. If the weather is decent, the Romans will come down from the city in droves to have a picnic in the weekends. Also, check the opening hours: they are usually changed from summer to winter schedule in October. And make sure you're at the gate when it opens, because you'll need a full day to see it all. Enjoy your trip! Well, this is important information. I've found a site online with a map, as you suggest. I'll be sure to check the off season "orario" on the official site before leaving, too. Thanks so much for your help!

Bring a map. Ostia is huge and doesn't have any signs or information panels. It's not really about specific sites, rather than to be able to walk in a Roman city. You could compare the experience to Pompeii I guess. Thanks so much for the information. Is there a museum of Ostia Antica on site, a place that gives the ancient city's history and perhaps shows a few important mosaics?

I'll be in Rome in October. What are a few sites not to miss when visiting Ostia Antica? It seems like an easy destination from Rome: you take the metro and then the train to the Lido.

The pockmarks on the Colosseum

http://latinum.mypodcast.com This is a service with very frequent podcasts for your iPod, mp3 player, or computer. Enjoy! "The Online Latin Course. Learn Latin through Total Immersion. Download our free lessons to your MP3 player, and soak yourself through with the sounds of spoken Latin. Its the only way to rapidly acquire fluency. We offer free lessons in spoken Latin, an expanding repository of readings from classical texts, and a wide range of study materials for every level of learner."

The Dutch were occupied by Spain for quite awhile. It wasn't until 1648 that the Spanish recognized the independence of the Netherlands. So this could have been a Dutch trading vessel flying Spanish colors and carrying Spanish coin the wrecked off Australia.

My country, the USA, is spending 12 billion dollars a month to occupy Iraq. Can you guess how many of my countrymen know where the darn place is located? I'd say a lot fewer than 1 in 5.

Thanks to Docoflover's post on Ladino, I became interested in the other minor and lesser known children of the Latin Language. Rumantsch or Rhaeto-Roman is one of four national languages of Switzerland. Here's a sound file link: http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/rumantsch.php The Lowlands site allows you to listen to a host of minor and major world languages. See what you started, Docoflover!

Classifying slavery as culture doesn't seem too enlightened to me, not even relatively; if that is so, any sort of human abuse might be considered folklore; vg, female genital mutilation ("circumcision") or even anti-Semitism. Good point, Asclepiades! Also, slavery in sub-Saharan Africa, tho no picnic, paled in comparison with the international slave trade as begin by the Portuguese and then taken up by the English.