Ludovicus

Hey! I read your post, so take your pox back, I'm getting itchy! But anyway. I would say that the CS had the same rights to sucession that the 13 colonies had when they suceeded from Great Britain. To quote the DoI: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." (actually I am quoting MPC quoting the DoI, if it is misquoted blame him!). The People of the 11 Southern states were exercising their right to abolish the Government and institute a new one. The South had the same right to suceed from the US that the 13 colonies had to suceed from Britain. The difference was, the 13 Colonies won (with signifigant help from France), and the 11 States lost. That is the bottom line. Vae Victus. The slave population of the secessionist states was at least one fourth that of free citizens there. In Alabama, 435,080 slaves to 519,121 free. What kind of "right" are we talking about here? Very large populations in these Confederate States had no say in deciding to secede. This was not a heroic struggle for freedom on the part of the CSA. It was a rebellion in favor of continuing the enslavement of a very large part of the inhabitants of that part of the country. To really see the stark difference between the two economies, slave and free, see the census of 1860: http://www.civilwarhome.com/population1860.htm To get back to Lincoln, his greatness lay in understanding the threat of slavery to the Union, explaining that threat to the entire country, and then, finally, acting to save the union from the aggression of the secessionist states.

Yes, but you can easily ruin your feet in Rome.

This is really much, much more than just the Amphitheater. This is great for getting oriented around the old part of the city. Thanks, this is a saver! Glad you find it informative. I'll never forget the long afternoon we spent starting at the Coliseum and then moving up the Celio (Caelian Hill). This hill doesn't seem to be the goal of many tourists but it has a remarkable number of Roman, late Roman, and medieval treasures: Here's one, the Basilica of Sts. John and Paul. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santi_Giovann...aolo_%28Rome%29

I'm not sure in which forum this topic belongs. Here's a link to a WikiMapia satellite map of the Flavian Amphitheater. http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=41.890226&am...amp;l=0&m=s

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I think it's time in this discussion to refer to the above founding document of the USA, The Declaration of Independence. The existence of slavery was a glaring contradiction to the original statement that created the nation. Its continued existence before the Civil War undercut the values Americans proclaimed to themselves and to the world on July 4, 1776. It was this fatal flaw that Lincoln understood. Latin American countries, save Brazil, made sure that slavery ended with independence. The world does learn from history. Thank God.

Slavery was not only an economic or moral problem. Slaves were blacks, a visible and distinct racial group, so freeing them would pose for the South a complex problem with an ethnic minority. This kind of problem it's much more explosive then all the others together. If southerners believed that their existence was threatened by abolition then they would do everything in their means to prevent it. A proof to this feeling it's that some of them tried to send the slaves back to Africa. Pushing southerners on what was a crucial aspect of life for them was to risk seccesion and war. That keeping human beings enslaved was "a crucial aspect of life" for the South underscores how wrong the South was. The 18th century British certainly found the 13 rebellious colonies a threat to "a crucial aspect" of their colonial system. But here in the US, we didn't let their objections deter us from overthrowing it.

I have just finished reading 'Constantinople' by Roger Crowley, about the seige and fall of Constantinople in 1453. There is reference to a senate even in this late period. Here is computer generated (CAD) reconstruction of the Senate of Constantinople in the Forum of Constantine: http://www.byzantium1200.com/senate2.html Here is a similarly reconstruction of another Senate House in Constantinople: http://www.byzantium1200.com/senato.html

And gave Britain and France enough reason to remain neutral. One aspect of all of this that is forgotten is the effect that the war had on Britain. Once the war started the North put a blockade around Southern ports to stop the export of cotton and the import of either money or goods to help the South's war effort. Most people in Britain and America don't realise that this caused massive poverty and hardship to the cotton workers in Lancashire who relied on the South's cotton for their raw materials. The workers held meetings and discussed what action they should take (for example, pur pressure on the government to join the war etc). Despite the fact it would harm their own welfare, the workers voted to support the abolition of slavery and helped to maintain British neutrality in the war. Sorry this is slightly of topic, but I feel that this selfless act should be wider known. Do you think it's possible that the cotton workers also took the anti-slavery side because of their own self-interests in the debate? How can free labor ever compete with forced labor?

I'll bet that any 8th century construction in the Forum of Nerva would have used mainly spolia (the reuse of older materials: columns, decorative stone, etc.). There's an interesting use of spolia inside the church of Santa Prassede, near Piazza Santa Maria Maggiore, in Rome. I don't see Charlemagne's basilica being built from scratch. Why should it have been? There must have been heaps of fallen columns within the vicinity of the construction site. "Hey, Rigobertus, go find me 8 nice classical columns about X meters long. Check out the Forum Romanum, if you can't find them nearby."

Here's a guess. The classical style was open: large porticoes, wide public spaces (tho often crowded with statues, memorial columns, etc.) With the arrival of Christianity and the loss of Roman power, the style changed to reflect these new developments. Interior spaces, both physical and psychological, became more important. Contemplation vs public display, e.g. You can see some of this in Augustine's writings: the soul, salvation, God. His are post classical in that they deal with interior themes. Also, the wealth that created these large public buildings in classical times became very much reduced. Many projects, such as baths, had their construction costs financed by individuals, even middle class patrons. The middle class, decuriones, became an extinct species during the final stage of Roman power. I'm sure other UNRVers have more to say about your interesting question.

I certainly have. I am looking through them right now! Are some of these models traditional cardboard and glue, or does it just appear so? Does the site tell me itself if I explore it properly and stop jumping from page to page like an excited child? " Reconstruction sketches were rare and for some buildings we were only able to find ground plans. And sometimes we couldn't even find any data about them. I was on the roofs taking measures on a few occasions. The reconstructions that existed were sketches or 2D plans. When I transferred them into the computer's three-dimensional environment they were not always matching and this was causing hard to solve problems. Our work process with Albrecht Berger was as follows: First, we were taking photocopies of the plans and reconstruction sketches in the books. If those were not available, and the building was still erect, I would go and take measures of the building. Later, he marked up the additions or changes made after 1200 and I transferred the measures into computer by a CAD program . By revolving 360 around the model I formed a simple animation and showed it to him. Albrecht Berger, after watching the animation would make the necessary corrections by considering the suggestions I proposed for the three-dimensional problems and then the building would become final." I found the above in the site's introduction: http://www.byzantium1200.com/introduction.html

Neil, Glad you enjoy the eye candy. Remember, the capitolium complex, as least in part, reused a previously pagan temple. So what you're looking at in the reconstruction is a prechristian building, probably predating Constantine. Have you clicked on the other reconstructions posted this year?

In the past few months the website has added new and fascinating reconstructions. My favorite is the Capitolium of Constantinople. Pay attention to the reliefs attached to the columns. Where have you seen them before? Click on "What's New" for more. http://www.byzantium1200.com/capitolium.html

Kosmo, I hope that we have set you straight that Lincoln did not start the Civil War. Perhaps you have never read his most famous speech, The Gettysburg Address. Here it is: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

By freeing the Confederacy's slaves, he quickly erased millions of dollars of the slave holders' capital and thereby impoverishing the enemy. Lincoln didn't free the Confederacy's slaves. He only freed the slaves in States loyal to the Union, or in conquered areas. By the time the 13th Amendment was ratified, the CSA had ceased to exist. If I give my opinion on the Civil War I will come off sounding like a hot-head who can't let things go. If I were to write with a cool and level sate of mind, I would rewrite what PP wrote in his first post. Otherwise, God save General Lee. We're both in error. Lincoln freed the slaves only in the areas in rebellion. Those areas of the Confederacy under Union Army control continued with slavery until slavery was outlawed in the Constitution, December 1865. However it's limitations, the Emancipation Proclamation did deprive the areas still in rebellion of vast amounts of capital since many slaves left, especially with the approach of the Union Army. From the US Government Archives: "President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free." Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory. Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not immediately free a single slave, it fundamentally transformed the character of the war. After January 1, 1863, every advance of federal troops expanded the domain of freedom. Moreover, the Proclamation announced the acceptance of black men into the Union Army and Navy, enabling the liberated to become liberators. By the end of the war, almost 200,000 black soldiers and sailors had fought for the Union and freedom." http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_...n_proclamation/

Lincoln didn't start the Civil War. It was the aggressiveness of the South in its drive to push slavery into the West. They even had eyes on Cuba. Before Abraham Lincoln's presidency the US was often referred to in the plural, e. g. The United States "are" exporting cotton. After the Civil War, the United States "is" exporting cotton. Although he hadn't originally intended to end slavery, the course of the Civil War convinced Lincoln that the back of the slave holding economy had to be broken in order to secure victory for the Union. By freeing the Confederacy's slaves, he quickly erased millions of dollars of the slave holders' capital and thereby impoverishing the enemy.

There are many factors probably...One would be conditions, climate, etc. Also there is the standing of the personality himself. Augustus was revered, other emperors weren't. I seem to remember reading someplace that ancient empire wide tourists would make a pilgrimage to Augustus' place of birth. Clodius, What you say makes perfect sense. Here in the US, we've kept Washington's home just the way it was during his presidency. The Romans would have done likewise with Augustus's palace. Thanks!

I don't understand how the wall paintings in August's palace could have survived intact. Didn't other emperors, updating the decor, use the same palace over and over again? How could these 30BC murals have survived other occupations/remodelings of the house. They say that the Palatine continued as a place of residence for barbarians and Byzantines long after 476AD. Can anyone venture a guess as to how these wall decorations could have survived until now?

"On Sunday following decades of painstaking restoration, the frescoes in vivid shades of blue, red and ochre went on public show for the first time since they were painted in about 30BC." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7286305.stm

I've just finished two: "A ciascuno il suo," by Leonardo Sciascia, a really good crime novel in Italian set in Sicily in the 1960's. The other is "The Good Priest's Son" by Reynolds Price.

It seems that schools teaching Latin and (maybe) Greek continued under the barbarians. By the time of Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), secular learning was in fast decline. Some scholars consider his age the first years of the post Roman era, and he the first pope of the Middle Ages.

Buon compleanno!!!

As a retired public school (city, township, and county supported) teacher, I couldn't agree more with Docoflove's post above. She listed: Lack of funding, recent standardization, and lack of parental support. Where I taught, in Philadelphia, a recent study says that city schools lack millions of dollars in funding. Music and art classes are disappearing fast. In regard to parental support, in the poverty stricken schools where I taught, many parents worked two and THREE jobs to make ends meet. My last school was filthy. There was no permanent cleaning staff. Filthy! Yet, there are many good public schools just outside the city limits. You cross the city line from Philadelphia to the upscale Mainline townships and per pupil expenditures leaps by thousands of dollars per pupil. It's a kind of educational apartheid. Public schools in most parts of the US are supported by the local tax gathering body. If a township is wealthy, the schools are good.

Within the last ten years, Archaeology Magazine did a feature article on the Forum of Trajan. Seems that Trajan's Forum survived intact into the 800's only to have one of that century's earthquakes take it down. Now there's a marker for the end of antiquity!

A number of us have an interest in the fate of the built structures in Rome after the decline of the empire in the West. Here's a short list of earthquake damage from the very interesting website on the Colosseum: http://www.the-colosseum.net/history/earthquake.htm For more on "everything about the Colosseum," go here in either English or Italian: http://www.the-colosseum.net/