Neos Dionysos

That is not necessarily true... many claim that tale was one created during the 17th/18th centuries in France to make references to the current political climates by using the 'last hero' of Rome, instead of one that is current and so avoid persecution. Nothing I have seen in Nowich's excellent series on Byzantium or of anything by Treadgold has ever hinted to Belisarius being reduced to a begger. Wikipedia does hint on it, though I'd like to try and find an actual textual reference... but for now this will have to do. Another strong factor in this is that Theodora died in 548ad, well before Belisarius' suppose'd blinding. After her death, there was no one 'out to get him' in the sense and even during her life while she hated him, she would not see him so horribly dishonored because he was married to Antonia who was Theodora close friend and confidant and such a crime would also shame her as well.

A good book that you may find great interest in is: The Roman War of Antiochos the Great: by John D. Grainger It deals completely with the episode you are describing.

Have you ever considered the possible "what if", that the occurance of events that could have come from if Justinian and Amalansutha's plan had gone through and she reached Eastern Roman lands and was then in the court of the emperor. I think there could be strong evidence to show she would have been able to get Justinian to leave Theodora and take Amalansutha as his wife. Obviously she was enough of a threat from Theodora's point of view that it is highly alleged she was partially behind her arrest and removal of power by Amalansutha's cousin and upon Justinian threatening action if she be not returned to the throne, Theodora is said to have sent a secret message to the cousin saying to do away with Theodoric's daughter and to not worry because Justinian will do nothing. She was then strangled and Justinian used her death to invade Italy. She was of noble birth, thought herself a Roman, acted and behaved like a true Roman and was so highly educated she could converse with Justinian about Roman Administrative laws in Latin or Greek, that is something Theodora could never even hope to do and then the comparison of the daughter of Theodoric, which means he can conviciably lay claim to rulership over Italy w/o any bloodshed while all Theodora was, was a circus preformer and one of terrible reputation if we beleive Procopius. If this happened, there would have been no great devastation of Italy, the economy would be still be rather strong and the coffers full of gold and the army in the East ready to face any potential threat with one of the greatest generals of the ancient world instead of being in the West draining manpower and resources.

Nice what if theory, this could be a great reasoning for the massive migrations of peoples from the north and the spread of Christianity using the reasoning you described. Also, another major point to consider, if these flucuations occur every 500 years of so we can argueably debate of other great catasphroses. Using a 100 variation, we go from 300-400ad, to also in 200-100bc of which during this period we do know of several great migrations of Germanic peoples into Gaul, and Roman frontiers and allied lands. In each case they were looking for new lands to settle in perhaps it had become to harsh to live in the northern regions if a mini-ice age occured. Now, if push back the time table some more, to 700-600bc and once more to 1200-1100bc, (again these are varations and I am willing to bet it could be 500-700 years in between each of these events in climate), we have the arrival of the "Sea Peoples'" to the 'civilzed world who came from various parts all over the place. Perhaps this great migration of people was triggered by this change in climate and with this great migration of people looking for new lands to call home they destroyed the society and culture of the Late Bronze Age. If we push the time once more back another 500 or so years to around 1700-1600bc, we have recorded dates of again great migrations of people from Inner Asia again. Perhaps you have stumbled upon something few even consider as a possibility for the breakdown of society for the massive influx of migrating peoples. Afterall, such migrations are not only recorded in Europe but also around the same time in China when Rome was experiencing this. So this is not an isolated event, but a world-wide one. I think this theory should be pursued and I know you have greatly peaked my interest in this idea to where I am going to try and find out more and corelate the data.

Thanks a lot... I appreciate it.

Yeah I know, part of the reason I actually took German in HS and in college, (after so many years I'm still not to good at yet... ), was so I can read a lot of the books and journals written in German on the subject. I'm focusing a lot and conditions for the collaspe of the west and trying to find out why. Of course there are many reasons that all worked together to create the current atmosphere, but after coming across some info I have kinda been trying to prove a theory of mine where Barbarization was a much more positive aspect of the late empire and not the terribly negative event that many people like to label it; and another part was that Rome was ineffective in really Romanizing the territories of the West and so it was very hard for them to really be united under one people, the East on the other hand had Alexander who first united them and so it was not a new idea or organization to unite so many different people under one banner than the West... Like I said, I'm trying to really get a lot of info on anything from the Western Half in the late empire and mainly sources of great detail and academic nature so anything that may seem dry and filled with facts is very exciting to me. LoL. What are your main interests in the late empire?

I have Norwich's books, the short history and then the hardcover books of the trilogy. They are indeed good, though as the titles say they are more focused on the East and the future Byzantine state rather than on the west. I have heard of Jones books, and I am looking to try and get a hold of them to read. Not much else I have come across except some that I was lucky enough to stumble upon, though I am trying. Sad thing is, many books I can find in bibliographies are no where near avalible for me and so I am really trying to see if I can get a copy on CD or somethign of the books from the Libaray of Congress since I can see they have them, and they claim they will get you copies of books so, we'll see. Thanks for any suggestions.

There is some blame that is also placed on Tiberius for making Caligula mad at least partially. The fact that he killed a lot of Caligula's family and had him secluded in Tiberius' private villa or palace, (I forgot which), and how he was forced to hail Tiberius emperor etc. knowing he killed his father and mother and brothers, that must have really screwed him up. He was afraid of Tiberius, and this may bring insight into his infamous comment, "Let them hate me so long as they fear me..." and so he was following the line of Tiberius as he thought how he should rule.

I do agree with you in the sense that she was an evil woman, though she is considered a saint in the Orthodox Church beleive it or not, (I was shocked), and you do have to admit that she did bring much stalwart support behind her husband, she did bring in new reforms and changes in public policy and helped make women more equal, (though they were still not of course), than they had been in the past and had it not been for her steadfastness in the face of the Nika revolt, Justinian may not have held the throne. Have you also heard of the theory she had Theodoric's daughter Amalansutha killed by her cousin because she felt threatened by her? Essentially, Amalansutha had good relations with Justinian, perhaps very good relations and Justinian, it is claimed, took a liking to her since she was of such noble birth and was educated like a Roman and good speak of the Law Codes and Administrations in Latin or Greek, so Theodora, being nothing more than a Circus Performer felt threatened and had her killed. When Amalansutha's cousin had her arrested, Justinian said he would take action if she were not placed back on the throne, yet the cousin recieved a secret message from Theodora telling him to get rid of her and that she guarenteed Justinian would do nothing. After her death, Justinian used that as his pretext to invade Italy. You can throw the theories either way but an interesting one to think nonetheless. I have no idea...

Don't forget the battle of Frigidus in 394 AD. While it was a civil war conflict, the battle did destroy most of the Western Army, and so now you have when a 20 year span, the destruction of the best troops of the East and West if you combine the problems of Adrianople.

Can anyone tell me of rather good Late Empire, (say 230-500ad), books that are out there. There is always a ton of information on the Republic and Early and High Empire but it seems to be real hard to find anything on the Late Empire and the fall of the Western half. Can anyone refer to me any texts or books on the period? I have Ammianus' account and also Gibbons' classic writings and am looking for any other primary or secondary sources etc. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Hello Professor, My question to you is from the end of the fourth century to the early fifth. Following Stilicho's death and the subsequent attack on foederati in Roman service what were the complete impact of this? I guess my question, did the Roman Aristocracy fear of barbarians help assure the death of the western half of the empire and if so in what ways? Was it simply that no longer could they get additional troops or is there much more to it? Thank you. Neos Dionysos