Wales

[WotWotius]

OK,

Why did it take so long for the Romans to conquor Wales?

[Pertinax]

A very short reply is-1.because a hard core of the Welsh tribes represented a non-material culture which was wholly alienated form the idea of Roman culture ie: trade and any cultural contact was irrelevant therefore the insidious grip of Roman productive wealth did not beguile them 2. Ynys Mon was the centre of the (literate and hence powerful) Druidic culture and remote from initial invasion and consolidation infrastructure3.The terrain was broken and favoured geurilla action so the desired set piece battle was difficult to achieve until the land had been subdivided by physical infrastructure 4. Until the Brigantes were wholly stable as Roman clients (hence acting as buffer state versus the various Caledonians ) the strategic position was difficult -so Cartamanduia's destabilisation of the Brigantine nation meant Rome had to deal with achieving stability in that tribal area before commiting resources to Wales.5.Until the Classis Brittania worked up to full capability in terms of fitted bases and fleet strength the deployment of coordinated marine interdiction was delayed.

 

edit: no mercantile contact=no intelligence gathering from unarmed visitors.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Pertinax

[WotWotius]

Below I have come up with a few more reason as to why it took so long to conquer Wales.

 

The area of Wales could be perceived as a valuable addition to the Roman Empire. It had large reserves of both copper and slate: though these were not exactly glamorous resources, they were still highly useful for industry. Gold was also rumoured to be present in the province (however, in reality in was in much shorter supply).

When Claudius received the submission of 11 British Kings (the famous

[Primus Pilus]

Evidently it took a long time to conquer Wales. It is my belief that Wales being conquered so quickly under Frontinus demonstrated that it was lack of imperial interest (e.g. under Nero) rather than other factors

[Pertinax]

I think "area denial" (for want of a better description in a strategic sense) and the usual "policing sub-division" approach ,(construction of roads/communication posts) pushed the Brythonic tribes toward the set piece engagement desired by Rome. The difficulty thereafter remains that no residue of combat capable males are tucked away in the hills waiting to raid and disrupt .AD 69 certainly caused any Roman heads to turn away from the provinces and look to Rome itself.

[Primus Pilus]

I think "area denial" (for want of a better description in a strategic sense) and the usual "policing sub-division" approach ,(construction of roads/communication posts) pushed the Brythonic tribes toward the set piece engagement desired by Rome. The difficulty thereafter remains that no residue of combat capable males are tucked away in the hills waiting to raid and disrupt .AD 69 certainly caused any Roman heads to turn away from the provinces and look to Rome itself.

 

Indeed, unlike Caledonia where there was always a vast territory of unexplored hiding places (from a Roman perspective) Wales was inundated with auxiliary policing forces. What I find so intriguing, is that despite this rather attested 'area-denial' strategy (which I also find rather agreeable), Rome had to remain ever vigilant regarding it's "Welsh" subjects. The rather large network of forts for such a relatively small area is telling I think. http://www.roman-britain.org/military/forts_wales.htm

[Pertinax]

A factor in the number of installations , might be, terrain and visibility -if you know Wales it has one characteristic that the Lake District shares-rain (and mist if that counts as a separate entity), and lots of it . I dont deny that the province as a whole is damp and cloudy but Wales and the Lakes win any competition for sheer soaking wetness.

[WotWotius]

A factor in the number of installations , might be, terrain and visibility -if you know Wales it has one characteristic that the Lake District shares-rain (and mist if that counts as a separate entity), and lots of it . I dont deny that the province as a whole is damp and cloudy but Wales and the Lakes win any competition for sheer soaking wetness.

 

Plus, if we are to believe Greco-Roman writers Welsh were really pale. After harassing the Romans they could have blended into the mist like a chameleon/Ninja.

 

Moving on...

Are there any recorded cases of Welsh resistance/unrest after Agricola neutralized the province?

Edited June 16, 2006 by WotWotius

[Pertinax]

I rifled through the OUP "Roman Britain" to see if it had any military references-(not really being a Welsh "expert") and can find no references to disturbances after the subjugation.Though scholars of the classics may be aware of some such event. I did note with interest that the next reference source is around AD550 suggesting that the area was the effective limit of Saxon conquest.

I think the role of the Classis Brittania is quite important, once Deva was fully established as a major port/fortress and major commercial centre ,command of the seas around Wales effectivley closed the net on any further discontent .The ability to strike from the sea seems to have totally demoralised the Brythonic tribes.Again I also suggest that once Romes mercantile tentacles spread the industrial and commercial influence of setlement would have weighed against previous traditional tribal forms.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Pertinax

[Primus Pilus]

Same as Pertinax...

 

There aren't any specific rebellions of 'Welsh' tribes after the Roman conquest, but it is likely that there were some disturbances. Considering the massive military presence though, the Romans were probably fast to react to the slightest incident.

 

During the rebellion that occured under Commodus through to the civil war following his death, I would find it hard to believe that the west wasn't at least a bit unsettled. When Clodius Albinus withdrew the legions from Britain to meet Septimius Severus, he essentially left the bulk of the province unmanned. Severus had his work cut out for him restoring order once he defeated Albinus and arrived in Britain. Though most accounts suggest that any tribal unrest had stemmed from the north (and hence the warrior emperor's return to the idea of Caledonian conquest), it would seem likely that the frontier regions of modern Wales was a bit troublesome as well.

 

Additionally, as I understand it the Ordovices and Deceangli never had their own tribal administrative center (civitas) as part of the empire, meaning that they were likely under Roman military government. Though most sources, including archaelogical evidence suggest that the Ordovices were severely punished by Agricola and the area did not recover for several generations. (I'm not sure that the Ordovices ever recovered but clearly other tribes would've moved in at some point).

[Pertinax]

I commented elsewhere about the number of serious "flare ups" affecting Vindolanda, involving possibly Brigantes, Selgovae, Votadinnii and incursions from the far North by the Pictii, Venniconii and Maetae.

These events occured roughly in , something like, AD 79, 179, 220 , 280. Four serious conflicts or rebellions -but look at the spread of the dates.Epigraphic and dig evidence confirms these "minor" uprisings. It must surely be that other areas under military government had times of tribulation , especially whilst Romans fought each other for Rome.However to what extent these "rebellions" were about tribal independence versus the evasion of customs duties (or a residual slave/cattle raiding warrior culture) there is little mention, I doubt that much thriving materialistic culture evaded Rome's mercantile or fiscal grasp.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Pertinax

[WotWotius]

Thanks for your help.

Edited June 16, 2006 by WotWotius

[Furius Venator]

I think, as has been mentioned, that the geography of Wales makes it difficult to hold and conquer (Edawrd I was near bankrupted by the cost of subjegating Wales).

 

Even today, communication are difficult, especially north-south, only the north and south coasts giving rapid transit.

[DecimusCaesar]

According to what I'v read the number of auxillary forts are misleading. Throughout long stretches of time these forts would have remained unoccupied and after 200 AD many of them, especially in the North (except for the fort of Segontium) would have remained unoccupied like Kanovium (in the Snowdonia mountains). Later on with the increasing threat of Irish pirates the forts are occupied closer to the sea, such as the fort and watchtower at Holyhead on Anglesey (built during the later period) by 394 AD the last remaining traces of Roman military occupancy had come to an end, with the Limitanei heading for Gaul, which explains why there is no mention of soldiers stationed in wales in the Notitia Dignitatum.

 

according to Welsh myth the Roman forces abandoned wales to fight with Magnus Maximus (although now we know they left the area later).