Condition of Roman Forum

[JGolomb]

I just came across the UNRV site and it's wonderful. I'm excited to be part of such an exciting and robust community.

 

I recently visited Rome with my wife for our 15th anniversary. I'm a huge world history buff and she's all about American history. She couldn't get her arms around who Hadrian was, what he did, when he was from, and why we kept seeing things he built. I told her that if it was Ben Franklin she'd know every niggling detail. She agreed.

 

At any rate...I saw this blog post from Mary Beard reviewing the state and condition of the Roman Forum:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2...-any-worse.html

 

I loved the Forum, but there were a few possible improvements that struck me as well.

1. The modern art that you can see in the picture on the blog above was horrible. I'm not a big modern art fan, but really? Big Blobbie things right next to the Temple of the Vestal Virgins? I assume it's a ploy to generate more traffic (and more ticket sales).

2. There was no place to just sit - to admire the ruins, to rest. Nothing. This seems to be the case throughout Rome.

3. There were no signs throughout the "exhibit". There were a few things inside the Curia, but I can't recall any real signage anywhere else. My wife and I brought Rick Steves' audio tour on my iPod and we used that as our guide. We could also have purchased the audio tour. We noticed that this was the case at almost every location we visited throughout Rome (and in much of Venice). It occurred to us that it's done in deference to the tour guides that crawl over the sites with their groups in tow.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Random thought: Have they ever considered rebuilding one of the temples nearby (or perhaps even in situ). I actually like the little books they sell throughout Rome that have the transparencies that present a view of what a temple or building looked like before it was ruins. But why not have a blinged out marble building that demonstrates the true magnificence that existed during Roman times?

[Northern Neil]

Hello JColomb, and welcome aboard! When I visited the forum I noticed the lack of seating, which was a bit irritating. Regarding reconstructing buildings, I believe the Curia was indeed reconstructed round about 1930 - hence its intact state. I suppose the reasons for not continuing this practice are many and varied; some archaeologists see this as further damaging an ancient building, whilst holders of budgets would say their money has to be spread evenly to finance the upkeep of what is already there.

[Melvadius]

Hello JColomb, and welcome aboard! When I visited the forum I noticed the lack of seating, which was a bit irritating. Regarding reconstructing buildings, I believe the Curia was indeed reconstructed round about 1930 - hence its intact state. I suppose the reasons for not continuing this practice are many and varied; some archaeologists see this as further damaging an ancient building, whilst holders of budgets would say their money has to be spread evenly to finance the upkeep of what is already there.

 

In addition to the obvious financial constraints with the sheer number of standing (and excavated) Roman remains there is also the issue that much of the reconstruction which has historically been done in Italy and in parts of its former Empire was under the auspices of Mussolini (c/f Ara Pacis being moved to its current site and the reconstruction of the Theatre at Ostia top name but two). Since Mussolin was toppled there has been an understandable backlash to the 'political imperative' under whcih much of the previous reconstruction was undertaken -(the greateness of Italy's future reflected in the 'reconstructed' remains from the past) so the idea of 'reconstruction' per se in Italy has since then generally been renounced.

 

The other issue whcih affects most archaeological reconstructions is where material is missing have the archaeologists or whoever ahs been given the job of reconstruction correctly interpreted what was orignally there - I haev seen examples of reconstruction drawings which were mad of the same building which are markedly different by three different artists.

 

The argument iwith any reconstruction s generally that it must remain possible to unpick modern reconstruction interpretations for the orignal material unlike the situation at Saalburg in Germany reconstrcuted on the same site under the orders of the Kaiser in the early 20th Century. The scale of destruction of original material that such ptojects involved has led in most instances to an aversion amongst most modern authorities to even attempting reconstruction on the same site -they now generally only build small scale reconstructions on relatively 'clean' or at least fully excavated areas c/f in Britain the interpretations of the turf and stone wall built at Vindolanda just off the middle of Hadrian's Wall and the more recent 'reconstructed' bath house at Segendunum and 'commadents' quarters and barrack block at Arbeia at the eastern end of Hadrian's Wall.

 

Melvadius

[JGolomb]

Melvadius - thank you for the terrific insight. I should have been more aware that the underpinnings of Italian politics would cause more issues than dollars specifically (sorry...Euros).

 

I would imagine that with the wealth of archeological activity throughout Italy, the underlying mechanisms and bureaucracies must be rather dense. Are archaeological work and related sites well funded in Italy? I would imagine they're such a proportionally high driver of tourism that they'd be near the front of the line to receive funding.

 

Are sensitivities still very high around Mussolini? It's hard to have proper context and understanding coming from an American education and perspective.

 

Thanks for your detailed response...

 

 

 

Hello JColomb, and welcome aboard! When I visited the forum I noticed the lack of seating, which was a bit irritating. Regarding reconstructing buildings, I believe the Curia was indeed reconstructed round about 1930 - hence its intact state. I suppose the reasons for not continuing this practice are many and varied; some archaeologists see this as further damaging an ancient building, whilst holders of budgets would say their money has to be spread evenly to finance the upkeep of what is already there.

 

In addition to the obvious financial constraints with the sheer number of standing (and excavated) Roman remains there is also the issue that much of the reconstruction which has historically been done in Italy and in parts of its former Empire was under the auspices of Mussolini (c/f Ara Pacis being moved to its current site and the reconstruction of the Theatre at Ostia top name but two). Since Mussolin was toppled there has been an understandable backlash to the 'political imperative' under whcih much of the previous reconstruction was undertaken -(the greateness of Italy's future reflected in the 'reconstructed' remains from the past) so the idea of 'reconstruction' per se in Italy has since then generally been renounced.

 

The other issue whcih affects most archaeological reconstructions is where material is missing have the archaeologists or whoever ahs been given the job of reconstruction correctly interpreted what was orignally there - I haev seen examples of reconstruction drawings which were mad of the same building which are markedly different by three different artists.

 

The argument iwith any reconstruction s generally that it must remain possible to unpick modern reconstruction interpretations for the orignal material unlike the situation at Saalburg in Germany reconstrcuted on the same site under the orders of the Kaiser in the early 20th Century. The scale of destruction of original material that such ptojects involved has led in most instances to an aversion amongst most modern authorities to even attempting reconstruction on the same site -they now generally only build small scale reconstructions on relatively 'clean' or at least fully excavated areas c/f in Britain the interpretations of the turf and stone wall built at Vindolanda just off the middle of Hadrian's Wall and the more recent 'reconstructed' bath house at Segendunum and 'commadents' quarters and barrack block at Arbeia at the eastern end of Hadrian's Wall.

 

Melvadius

[Klingan]

1. The modern art that you can see in the picture on the blog above was horrible. I'm not a big modern art fan, but really? Big Blobbie things right next to the Temple

 

The modern art is a temporary exchange from a recently constructed Japanese (?) temple, I doubt that it'll be there for long. They havve more information about it along the Via Apppia.

[Melvadius]

Melvadius - thank you for the terrific insight. I should have been more aware that the underpinnings of Italian politics would cause more issues than dollars specifically (sorry...Euros).

 

I would imagine that with the wealth of archeological activity throughout Italy, the underlying mechanisms and bureaucracies must be rather dense. Are archaeological work and related sites well funded in Italy? I would imagine they're such a proportionally high driver of tourism that they'd be near the front of the line to receive funding.

 

Are sensitivities still very high around Mussolini? It's hard to have proper context and understanding coming from an American education and perspective.

 

Thanks for your detailed response...

 

In actual fact Italy has a similar problem to a complaint I've also heard made about Egypt in that they have an inordinate amount of archaeological remains which have already been excavated but despite tourist numbers at some famous sites have only a fairly limited budget with which to continue maintaining them.

 

The situation at Herculaneum is a good exemplar of the problem; we visited several times over a few years some time back yet in that short time noted attrition to the standing remains as earlier 'strengthening' in some buildings had succumbed to water penetration and/or metal fatigue leading to the partial collapse of some buildings.

 

It is known that there are a large sections of the town which remain unexcavated including the Villa of the Papyrii however it is only in recent years that any further excavation or at least investigation has taken place [c/f article at the Friends of Herculaneum http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneu...1/DeSimone.html].

 

The map at the end of the article is a good indication of the extent of Herculaneum which is probably still buried if you look at the location of the theatre in comparison to the area already expesoed int he bottom right hand corner and with the villa location in the bottom left hand corner. The key issue with the Villa in particular is not just the area which is covered and which would need the buildings above it removed along with the overburden of volcanic material to allow full access to the site but also there are issues of the shifting water table which may lead to destruction or at least further damage of any surviving remains before excavations could be completed.

 

Irrespective of the conservation issues which are liable to arise e.g. should another large cache of papyrii be found, the local museum authorities also have the issue of how they can protect the newly exposed buildings from the elements and make them safe for visitors in the future - all this ideally without anything that is too obtrusive which could detract from the visual impact of anyone seeing the 'actual Roman' buildings in situ and more importantly not create another future problem with strengthening beams starting to deteriorate.

 

In Britain we were able to partially get round this problem at Fishbourne Palace where a covering building was erected just over the exposed foundations containing most of the mosaic floors but if you included all of the ancilliary buildings and the terrace the Villa of the Papyri is a much bigger building covering several levels so the scale of the problem and consequently costs involved would be enourmous.

 

Melvadius

Edited August 24, 2009 by Melvadius

[JGolomb]

Melvadius,

 

I guess it ultimately comes down to money: how much there is and how it's distributed. I'm sure the politics of archaeology are pretty ugly in Itay as well.

 

It's still remains a surprise that there's very little relative infrastructure to something so foundational (historically and financially) as the remains of the Roman Forum.

 

Thank you again for your insights.

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

Melvadius - thank you for the terrific insight. I should have been more aware that the underpinnings of Italian politics would cause more issues than dollars specifically (sorry...Euros).

 

I would imagine that with the wealth of archeological activity throughout Italy, the underlying mechanisms and bureaucracies must be rather dense. Are archaeological work and related sites well funded in Italy? I would imagine they're such a proportionally high driver of tourism that they'd be near the front of the line to receive funding.

 

Are sensitivities still very high around Mussolini? It's hard to have proper context and understanding coming from an American education and perspective.

 

Thanks for your detailed response...

 

In actual fact Italy has a similar problem to a complaint I've also heard made about Egypt in that they have an inordinate amount of archaeological remains which have already been excavated but despite tourist numbers at some famous sites have only a fairly limited budget with which to continue maintaining them.

 

The situation at Herculaneum is a good exemplar of the problem; we visited several times over a few years some time back yet in that short time noted attrition to the standing remains as earlier 'strengthening' in some buildings had succumbed to water penetration and/or metal fatigue leading to the partial collapse of some buildings.

 

It is known that there are a large sections of the town which remain unexcavated including the Villa of the Papyrii however it is only in recent years that any further excavation or at least investigation has taken place [c/f article at the Friends of Herculaneum http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneu...1/DeSimone.html].

 

The map at the end of the article is a good indication of the extent of Herculaneum which is probably still buried if you look at the location of the theatre in comparison to the area already expesoed int he bottom right hand corner and with the villa location in the bottom left hand corner. The key issue with the Villa in particular is not just the area which is covered and which would need the buildings above it removed along with the overburden of volcanic material to allow full access to the site but also there are issues of the shifting water table which may lead to destruction or at least further damage of any surviving remains before excavations could be completed.

 

Irrespective of the conservation issues which are liable to arise e.g. should another large cache of papyrii be found, the local museum authorities also have the issue of how they can protect the newly exposed buildings from the elements and make them safe for visitors in the future - all this ideally without anything that is too obtrusive which could detract from the visual impact of anyone seeing the 'actual Roman' buildings in situ and more importantly not create another future problem with strengthening beams starting to deteriorate.

 

In Britain we were able to partially get round this problem at Fishbourne Palace where a covering building was erected just over the exposed foundations containing most of the mosaic floors but if you included all of the ancilliary buildings and the terrace the Villa of the Papyri is a much bigger building covering several levels so the scale of the problem and consequently costs involved would be enourmous.

 

Melvadius

[Kosmo]

The italians were masters of Dodecanez archipelago in the Aegean and did some surprising things in their colony. The first was the reconstruction of the Castle in Rhodos and they did an amazing job with it despite the huge size of the thing. The charming medieval old town would have looked very bad with a pile of rubble in the middle. Inside the castle they put some of the ancient mosaics they found on the islands, the mosaics were in this way protected and the castle made more interesting for tourists that are not disturbed by a modern mix of medieval and antique.

[Rompe]

You are not the only one that noticed not only the lack of places to take a rest while walking around the Forum/Palentine Hill etc, but also no real way of knowing what is what besides a placard (sorry for wrong spelling) that are placed on a few MAJOR ruins here and there. (Have some up in my photograffs that I took while I was there.) Once in awhile, it seems that they may have a very vague sign up pointing the way to something major (IE: "This way to Forum, this way to Circus Maximus etc") There is no one to ask anywhere either. I must have brought and carried around Rome (which got VERY heavy especially on the tons of stairs) around 4-5 books to give me a guide/locator on where certain things are, which ruin is which etc, but not even this helped and could not tell me which a lot was since so many layers upon layers have been built on top of one another.

 

One thing that I did not like seeing around there, was how people will just use fallen columns, old ruins that are not blocked off from public entrance, etc as chairs, "toys" to keep their kids occupied (I saw one kid standing on an old column and trying to roll it around while hanging onto an old wall of another ruin while the parents just stood there), saw some kids hitting ruins and tossing old pieces of concrete at them, kids making graffitti etc. There is no one to even keep an eye out for anything like this.

 

Yes, I know it is a huge place. Lots to see, lots to take in, big area...but a few little improvements would be really nice and helpful to not only help tourists get around (without having to use one of those cheesy headsets or take a vague walking tour that they offer) but to also keep the area safe from distruction.

[JGolomb]

You are not the only one that noticed not only the lack of places to take a rest while walking around the Forum/Palentine Hill etc, but also no real way of knowing what is what besides a placard (sorry for wrong spelling) that are placed on a few MAJOR ruins here and there. (Have some up in my photograffs that I took while I was there.) Once in awhile, it seems that they may have a very vague sign up pointing the way to something major (IE: "This way to Forum, this way to Circus Maximus etc") There is no one to ask anywhere either. I must have brought and carried around Rome (which got VERY heavy especially on the tons of stairs) around 4-5 books to give me a guide/locator on where certain things are, which ruin is which etc, but not even this helped and could not tell me which a lot was since so many layers upon layers have been built on top of one another.

 

One thing that I did not like seeing around there, was how people will just use fallen columns, old ruins that are not blocked off from public entrance, etc as chairs, "toys" to keep their kids occupied (I saw one kid standing on an old column and trying to roll it around while hanging onto an old wall of another ruin while the parents just stood there), saw some kids hitting ruins and tossing old pieces of concrete at them, kids making graffitti etc. There is no one to even keep an eye out for anything like this.

 

Yes, I know it is a huge place. Lots to see, lots to take in, big area...but a few little improvements would be really nice and helpful to not only help tourists get around (without having to use one of those cheesy headsets or take a vague walking tour that they offer) but to also keep the area safe from distruction.

I just came across this related story that focuses on the financial balance between archaeological discovery & research and site preservation: Unearthing Italy's history

 

First, some comments:

1. My wife and I visited Rome in June and one of the most astounding and startling things I found was the amount of random archaeological activity throughout the city. Within the first few hours of walking the city, we found ourselves lost only about 4 blocks from the Capitoline Hill and we bumped into the Area Sacra di Largo Argentina. For those who aren't aware, it's about a 1 or 2 square city block of fenced partially dug archaoological ruins. Attached is a cat reserve and it's stunning to see all of these wild housecats strewn about the ruins.

 

2. Within the archaeological sites themselves, I was amazed at such an abundance of artifacts, that site caretakers don't seem to know quite what to do with it all. There are column capitols just placed throughout the 'concourses' of the Colosseum. There are piles of marble (or perhaps lavertine stone) within deep gated niches throughout the Colosseum. At the Palatine, there were stacks of rock (marble? lavertine?) slabs piled in a corner of a part of Domus Augustana.

 

3. We saw the frescoed rooms from the House of Augustus referenced below. I didn't quite realize how new they were, but they were stunning - restored, bright and vivid, though we could only view them through clouded windows.

 

4. I couldn't actually identify which set of ruins (or ruin) was Romulus' Hut also referenced in the story below. Things are not clearly marked (see initial posts on this topic regarding that issue), and there's not much more to see than crumbling bricks which sort of looks like a well. I recall this story from two years ago...regarding the discovery of the Lupercale - a richly decorated grotto restored by Augustus in the first century B.C. There's obviously no clear evidence that the hut itself was inhabited by Romulus, however it's style is consistent with 8th century B.C.

 

The story:

It is oft said that you can't repair a water main, break ground for a parking garage or dig up a potato in Rome without finding a treasure.

 

The roots of the Eternal City, which celebrated its 2,762nd birthday, go deep and are still being unearthed. When first plumbed in the 16th century, the layer cake underneath the city yielded classical artifacts that helped inform the Renaissance.

 

Almost as inevitably as the yellow mimosas bloom in the spring, archaeologists keep coming here, wrangling excavation permits and opening trenches. Passersby see red-and-white-striped plastic tape and piles of dirt but rarely learn what is being sought in the rubble, because when a dig yields an important find, it takes years of negotiation, fundraising, preservation, public-access construction and scholarly interpretation to open a site to visitors.

 

As a resident, I often pass excavation sites and wonder what is going on. I had a chance last fall when I visited a dig in Aqueduct Park, on the southeastern side of the city, where an ancient water conduit makes a broad bend on its way into the capital. Since 2006, when the American Institute for Roman Culture began an archaeological dig, the park has yielded treasures: intricately worked mosaics, the head of a god thought to be Zeus and structural evidence of a first- or second-century bathing complex larger and more sophisticated than any yet found in the area immediately surrounding Rome.

 

Records identify it as the site of the Villa delle Vignacce, owned during Imperial Roman times by brick manufacturer Quintus Servilius Pudens.

 

It is unclear whether the multi-story bathhouse, with its intact Roman saunas, was part of a private villa or a public complex.

 

In either case, the site calls into question long-held concepts about the configuration of Imperial Rome.

 

 

[Ludovicus]

Mussolini was so interested in using the

monuments of Imperial Rome to legitimate fascism that his projects destroyed

many of the post imperial layers of the city.

So the city's transition from the end of the empire to

the medieval period is mostly lost.

[Maladict]

Mussolini was so interested in using the

monuments of Imperial Rome to legitimate fascism that his projects destroyed

many of the post imperial layers of the city.

So the city's transition from the end of the empire to

the medieval period is mostly lost.

 

That's a bit harsh, though. The transition is still better documented than it is for most large cities in the empire.

[JGolomb]

3. We saw the frescoed rooms from the House of Augustus referenced below. I didn't quite realize how new they were, but they were stunning - restored, bright and vivid, though we could only view them through clouded windows.

 

from the story I posted last week...

And last spring, the Italian government opened a series of frescoed chambers in the home of Emperor Augustus on the Palatine Hill.

For those still watching this thread, I thought the images were valuable...

I came across an old news story and images of the frescoed room from the home of Octavian. The story indicates that "Augustus lived there in his youth, before moving to his imperial palace higher on the hill." This, I believe, means he was still known as Octavian rather than Augustus, right?

 

The story is from 2008. Roman Emperor's Digs on Public View

"For more than 40 years, he used the same bedroom in winter and summer...If ever he planned to do anything in private or without interruption, he had a [designated] place at the top of the house," the Roman historian and biographer Suetonius wrote in his "Life of Augustus."

 

Describing the house on Palatine Hill, Suetonius pointed out that the residence "was remarkable neither for size nor elegance, having short colonnades with columns of Alban stone, and rooms without any marble decorations or handsome pavements."

 

Indeed, despite the vaulted ceilings and painted rooms, the house is less than palatial: Visitors are shown four modest, windowless rooms -- an entrance hall, the Room of the Masks, the Room of the Pines, and a small study -- Augustus' retreat -- on the floor above.

 

 

[JGolomb]

Mussolini was so interested in using the

monuments of Imperial Rome to legitimate fascism that his projects destroyed

many of the post imperial layers of the city.

So the city's transition from the end of the empire to

the medieval period is mostly lost.

Just came across an article that discusses Moussolini's impact to the Rome's architecture. Nicely fits in with this thread.

Mussolini's legacy in modern Rome

 

excerpt:

Reporting from Rome - Along the wide, straight Via dei Fori Imperiali near the Colosseum, sightseers often stop to look at a series of maps showing the growth of the Roman Empire: just a dot on the west coast of the Italian peninsula in the 8th century BC, larger in the next two panels, then at its most expansive in the fourth tablet when the Roman world stretched from Spain to Mesopotamia.

 

Nothing remains of the fifth map placed here in 1936 to commemorate Italy's conquest of Ethiopia under the direction of Benito Mussolini.

 

Like so many other emblems of Italy's Fascist era, the plaque disappeared shortly after Allied troops liberated Rome in 1944, consigned to the scrap heap of a discredited time most people would rather forget. Only historical scavengers seek the remaining Fascist icons, such as the obelisk, still bearing the inscription "Mussolini Dux" (Latin for "leader"), leading to Il Duce's Foro Italico sports complex north of the historic city center.

 

Il Duce left ugly black marks on the modern history of Italy. But he was, nonetheless, a visionary builder who sought to imbue Italians with a sense of patriotism by reconfiguring their ancient imperial capital.

 

"In five years' time," he proclaimed in 1925, "Rome must astonish the peoples of the world. It must appear vast, orderly and powerful as it was in the days of Augustus."