The Founding Fathers and Ancient History

[guy]

As one of many Americans celebrating Independence Day, I am reminded of the great influence Ancient history had on the formation of our Republic.

 

I

[ASCLEPIADES]

As one of many Americans celebrating Independence Day, I am reminded of the great influence Ancient history had on the formation of our Republic.

Salve, G aka G. Happy 4th July 2U2!

 

From The Founding Fathers & the Classics.

 

by Dr. Joe Wolverton II

 

Ancient history provided the Founders with examples of behavior and circumstances that they could apply to their own circumstances. Their heroes were Roman and Greek republicans and defenders of liberty. All of the Founders

[ASCLEPIADES]

It seems George Washington often quoted Joseph Addison's play Cato, a Tragedy on the last days of Marcus Porcius Cato Uticencis at 46 bc, where Caesar's enemy is depicted as a romantic Republican martyr against tyranny.

 

Probably the best known is that from Act I, Scene 2:

"'Tis not in mortals to command success; but we'll do more, Sempronius, we'll deserve it."

 

It is directly quoted in Washington's letter praising Gral. Benedict Arnold's remarkable march through the northern wilderness in the fall of 1775:

 

"It is not in the power of any man to command success; but you have done more

Edited July 5, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here comes the acme of the legendary Patrick Henry's "Treason's Speech" at the Virginia Colony's House of Burgesses on May 30, 1765:

 

"Caesar had his Brutus; Charles the First his Cromwell; and George the Third

[ASCLEPIADES]

This comes from the famous letter of May 8, 1825 from Thomas Jefferson to Henry Lee about the object of the Declaration of Independence:

 

"Neither aiming at originality of principle or sentiment, nor yet copied from any particular and previous writing, it was intended to be an expression of the American mind, and to give to that expression the proper tone and spirit called for by the occasion.

All its authority rests then on the harmonizing sentiments of the day, whether expressed in conversation, in letters, printed essays, or in the elementary books of public right, as Aristotle, Cicero, Locke, Sidney, &c."

[ASCLEPIADES]

This is St. George Tucker's account on Patrick Henry's famous "Give me liberty or give me death!" oration on March 23rd, 1775:

 

"Imagine to yourself this speech delivered with all the calm dignity of Cato of Utica; imagine to yourself the Roman senate assembled in the capitol when it was entered by the profane Gauls, who at first were awed by their presence as if they had entered an assembly of the gods; imagine you heard that Cato addressing such a senate; imagine you heard a voice as from heaven uttering the words, 'We must fight!' as the doom of fate, - and you may have some idea of the speaker, the assembly to whom he addressed himself".

[ASCLEPIADES]

Here come James Otis Jr comments on Polybius at The Rights of the British Colonies Asserted and Proved (Boston: 1764), pg. 14;

 

"The very few colonists who knew him found his history more useful for illustrative than for philosophic materials. In this respect, however, his description of the Roman constitution at the time of the battle of Cannae aroused some homage and in all likelihood contributed to the high value placed on separation of powers as a basis of stable government".

[maryv]

As one of many Americans celebrating Independence Day, I am reminded of the great influence Ancient history had on the formation of our Republic.

Salve, G aka G. Happy 4th July 2U2!

 

From The Founding Fathers & the Classics.

 

by Dr. Joe Wolverton II

 

Ancient history provided the Founders with examples of behavior and circumstances that they could apply to their own circumstances. Their heroes were Roman and Greek republicans and defenders of liberty. All of the Founders

[ASCLEPIADES]

Another critical admirer of the Megalopolitan was John Adams; from his A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States (1787), Vol I, Letter XXX-XXXI :

 

"Thus, my dear Sir, you see that Polybius's opinion of different orders, checks, and balances, in a commonwealth, is very different from that of Mr. Turgot. The Roman constitution formed the noblest people, and the greatest power, that has ever existed. But if all the powers of the consuls, senate, and people, had been centered in a single assembly of the people, collectively or representatively, will any man pretend to believe that they would have been long free, or ever great?

The distribution of power was however never accurately or judiciously made in that constitution: the executive was never sufficiently separated from the legislative, nor had these powers a controul upon each other defined with sufficient accuracy: the executive had not power to interpose and decide between the people and the senate.

 

As we advance in this correspondence, we may see cause to differ widely from the judgment or Polybius, "that it is impossible to invent a more perfect system of government." We may be convinced that the constitution of England, if its balance is seen to play, in practice, according to the principles of its theory

[ASCLEPIADES]

I find this part of history of interest and could use some help with some explanations, please.

 

The colonies were settled by ancient land grants from the King. The land granting system was under 'Free and Common Soccage'.

 

''These colonies were planted and settled by the grants, and under the protection, of English kings, who entered into covenants with us, for themselves, their heirs, and successors; and it is from these covenants that the duty of protection on their part, and the duty of allegiance on ours, arise''. [Alexander Hamilton Feb. 5, 1775]

 

 

In 1660, the Crown gave up some rights to wardship in exchange for excise tax, a condition buried in Soccage. I have heard that part of the Revolution was based on the Crown's right to the hated Excise Tax, a tax the American colonists had no say in but were obliged to pay as it was a condition of the land grants.

 

The question I have is actually about the terminology around 'Free and Common Soccage' Blackstone said the Free meant the liberty of the property. I am having a hard time finding what Soccage really meant and where the word originated from.

 

As you mention, the Founding Fathers respected the Roman Consititution. Under ancient Roman Agriculture legislation, the word Soccus meant 'plough'. The word Ager meant acres, fields, countryside, farmland. Ager has rights duties and obligations such as allowing the passage of people (a road) and through the property.

 

Did the word Soccage originate from the two latin words soccus and ager? If so, where can one find definiative proof? Could someone please explain the word Soccage? What did that word really mean?

thank you

Salve, Maryv.

That pseudo-etymology seems to have been a popular misconception some time ago.

 

Soccage was British feudalism in its purest form; land for military service.

From the Medieval English Law, "a tenure of land held by the tenant in performance of specified services or by payment of rent, and not requiring military service".

 

It is contrasted with other forms of tenure including serjeanty (the farmer paid no rent but had to perform some personal/official service on behalf of his lord, including in times of war) and frankalmoin (some form of religious service).

 

The statute of Quia Emptores (1290) established that socage tenure passed automatically from one generation to the next. As feudalism declined socage tenure increased until it became the normal form of tenure in England. In 1660, the Statute of Tenures ended the remaining forms of military service and all free tenures were converted into socage.

 

'Free and Common Soccage' was offered to British subjects in exchange for coming to the Colonies ; consequently, it was one of the main American Colonists quarrels against George III government for reserving those lands west from the Appalachian Mountains "to the Indians".

 

The word socage (socagge is its archaic form) came from Middle English sokage (circa 1275

Edited July 10, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[maryv]

I find this part of history of interest and could use some help with some explanations, please.

 

The colonies were settled by ancient land grants from the King. The land granting system was under 'Free and Common Soccage'.

 

''These colonies were planted and settled by the grants, and under the protection, of English kings, who entered into covenants with us, for themselves, their heirs, and successors; and it is from these covenants that the duty of protection on their part, and the duty of allegiance on ours, arise''. [Alexander Hamilton Feb. 5, 1775]

 

 

In 1660, the Crown gave up some rights to wardship in exchange for excise tax, a condition buried in Soccage. I have heard that part of the Revolution was based on the Crown's right to the hated Excise Tax, a tax the American colonists had no say in but were obliged to pay as it was a condition of the land grants.

 

The question I have is actually about the terminology around 'Free and Common Soccage' Blackstone said the Free meant the liberty of the property. I am having a hard time finding what Soccage really meant and where the word originated from.

 

As you mention, the Founding Fathers respected the Roman Consititution. Under ancient Roman Agriculture legislation, the word Soccus meant 'plough'. The word Ager meant acres, fields, countryside, farmland. Ager has rights duties and obligations such as allowing the passage of people (a road) and through the property.

 

Did the word Soccage originate from the two latin words soccus and ager? If so, where can one find definiative proof? Could someone please explain the word Soccage? What did that word really mean?

thank you

Salve, Maryv.

That pseudo-etymology seems to have been a popular misconception some time ago.

 

Soccage was British feudalism in its purest form; land for military service.

From the Medieval English Law, "a tenure of land held by the tenant in performance of specified services or by payment of rent, and not requiring military service".

 

It is contrasted with other forms of tenure including serjeanty (the farmer paid no rent but had to perform some personal/official service on behalf of his lord, including in times of war) and frankalmoin (some form of religious service).

 

The statute of Quia Emptores (1290) established that socage tenure passed automatically from one generation to the next. As feudalism declined socage tenure increased until it became the normal form of tenure in England. In 1660, the Statute of Tenures ended the remaining forms of military service and all free tenures were converted into socage.

 

'Free and Common Soccage' was offered to British subjects in exchange for coming to the Colonies ; consequently, it was one of the main American Colonists quarrels against George III government for reserving those lands west from the Appalachian Mountains "to the Indians".

 

The word socage (socagge is its archaic form) came from Middle English sokage (circa 1275

[ASCLEPIADES]

Thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it.

 

In the Magna Carta of June 15, 1215, the word Socage/Soccage shows up no less than three times.

 

The Magna Carta, I understand, was written in Latin as were all the by-laws of the day in Great Britain. Therefore, the word soccage is older than the magna carta.

I'm glad to know you find the information useful.

"Circa 1275-1325" means an estimation for the oldest documents where "soccage" is first attested in (Middle) English. Magna Carta, as you rightly point, was first written in Medieval Latin (not English). The three times you find "sokage" in this document is in its clause #37:

 

Si aliquis teneat de nobis per feodifirmam, vel per sokagium, vel per burgagium, et de alio terram teneat per servicium militare, nos non habebimus custodiam heredis nec terre sue que est de feodo alterius, occasione illius feodifirme, vel sokagii, vel burgagii; nec habebimus custodiam illius feodifirme, vel sokagii, vel burgagii, nisi ipsa feodifirma debeat servicium militare.

 

"If any one holding of us by fee-farm or by socage or by burgage holds land of some one else by military service, on account of that fee-farm or socage or burgage we are not to have the wardship of the heir or of the land that is another's fee, unless the said [land held by] fee-farm owes military service".

 

Note the Germanic "k" and not the Latin "c" is used, denouncing its origin. The original word (its stem) was "soke", attested in many Germanic languages, as old as oral tradition goes (Nordic sagas) and an almost direct descent from a Proto-Indo-European root. "Soke" got into Old French presumably via Old English; the French just added the latin suffix "-age".

 

"Sokage" is what is "soked" (sought) by a "sokeman", just as many other gallicisms like "marriage", "leverage", "assemblage", "carnage", "sabotage", "collage", "coverage" and so on.

 

Ager was defined as the earth, farmland, field, ground, the countryside. The secondary meaning was the flat plain land as like in a range as opposed to mountainous land.

 

Soccus is indeed a comedian or more importantly the type of shoe the comedian wore. A soccus was a low flat bottom shoe that was worn without ties. A loose fitting slip on slipper. A plough is an implement with a flat-bottom 'shoe'. If one looks at the ancient plough, you will see the resemblance between the 'court jesters' shoes and the shape of the plough.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0124.html

 

The word soccus used as a metaphor to describe the implement. Every farmer knows the shoes on implements that cultivate the earth.

 

As found in an ad''For all types of ploughs which use a cast iron gliding shoe for support, we have a very wear resistant alternative. This shoe is made of high quality steel, rubber and ceramic and is cylindrically shaped. It increases the life of the wear package (blades and shoes) enormously''

 

Did the word soccage originate from the metaphor of the flat-bottom shoe (the plough) and ager meaning farmland with ancient rights and servitudes that belonged to farmland under old Roman legislation? Did the word arise after the Romans settled Great Britain?

Gratiam habeo for such extensive explanation; I would really like to know your main sources, even if they are almost surely wrong.

Again: "Soccage" or "Sokage" is the french derivation from the Germanic (Old English) word "soke" or "sok", directly related to nowadays "seek". Nothing to do with the Romans in the dictionaries that I've checked so far.

 

After Hastings, England lived in an effective triglossia; Medieval Latin for the elite, a Norman dialect of the Langue d'Oil (Old French) for the nobles, Middle English for the common people.

 

If one reads the conditions of Free and Common Soccage to receive a land grant from the Crown, it reads like old Roman legislation concerning agricultural laws. Protecting ones property, road access, building a home, drainage rights, water rights, property identification, manure and garbage, etc.

 

I would really appreciate more information on this matter and discussion.

We don't agree on this one; Feudalism (land for military service) is fundamentally a medieval (postclassic) developement.

It only got into the Eastern Roman Empire ("Byzantine" for some) as late as the XI century (Pronoia).

I would really appreciate more information on this matter and discussion too.

[maryv]

Thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it.

 

In the Magna Carta of June 15, 1215, the word Socage/Soccage shows up no less than three times.

 

The Magna Carta, I understand, was written in Latin as were all the by-laws of the day in Great Britain. Therefore, the word soccage is older than the magna carta.

I'm glad to know you find the information useful.

"Circa 1275-1325" means an estimation for the oldest documents where "soccage" is first attested in (Middle) English. Magna Carta, as you rightly point, was first written in Medieval Latin (not English). The three times you find "sokage" in this document is in its clause #37:

 

Si aliquis teneat de nobis per feodifirmam, vel per sokagium, vel per burgagium, et de alio terram teneat per servicium militare, nos non habebimus custodiam heredis nec terre sue que est de feodo alterius, occasione illius feodifirme, vel sokagii, vel burgagii; nec habebimus custodiam illius feodifirme, vel sokagii, vel burgagii, nisi ipsa feodifirma debeat servicium militare.

 

"If any one holding of us by fee-farm or by socage or by burgage holds land of some one else by military service, on account of that fee-farm or socage or burgage we are not to have the wardship of the heir or of the land that is another's fee, unless the said [land held by] fee-farm owes military service".

 

Note the Germanic "k" and not the Latin "c" is used, denouncing its origin. The original word (its stem) was "soke", attested in many Germanic languages, as old as oral tradition goes (Nordic sagas) and an almost direct descent from a Proto-Indo-European root. "Soke" got into Old French presumably via Old English; the French just added the latin suffix "-age".

 

"Sokage" is what is "soked" (sought) by a "sokeman", just as many other gallicisms like "marriage", "leverage", "assemblage", "carnage", "sabotage", "collage", "coverage" and so on.

 

Ager was defined as the earth, farmland, field, ground, the countryside. The secondary meaning was the flat plain land as like in a range as opposed to mountainous land.

 

Soccus is indeed a comedian or more importantly the type of shoe the comedian wore. A soccus was a low flat bottom shoe that was worn without ties. A loose fitting slip on slipper. A plough is an implement with a flat-bottom 'shoe'. If one looks at the ancient plough, you will see the resemblance between the 'court jesters' shoes and the shape of the plough.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0124.html

 

The word soccus used as a metaphor to describe the implement. Every farmer knows the shoes on implements that cultivate the earth.

 

As found in an ad''For all types of ploughs which use a cast iron gliding shoe for support, we have a very wear resistant alternative. This shoe is made of high quality steel, rubber and ceramic and is cylindrically shaped. It increases the life of the wear package (blades and shoes) enormously''

 

Did the word soccage originate from the metaphor of the flat-bottom shoe (the plough) and ager meaning farmland with ancient rights and servitudes that belonged to farmland under old Roman legislation? Did the word arise after the Romans settled Great Britain?

Gratiam habeo for such extensive explanation; I would really like to know your main sources, even if they are almost surely wrong.

Again: "Soccage" or "Sokage" is the french derivation from the Germanic (Old English) word "soke" or "sok", directly related to nowadays "seek". Nothing to do with the Romans in the dictionaries that I've checked so far.

 

After Hastings, England lived in an effective triglossia; Medieval Latin for the elite, a Norman dialect of the Langue d'Oil (Old French) for the nobles, Middle English for the common people.

 

If one reads the conditions of Free and Common Soccage to receive a land grant from the Crown, it reads like old Roman legislation concerning agricultural laws. Protecting ones property, road access, building a home, drainage rights, water rights, property identification, manure and garbage, etc.

 

I would really appreciate more information on this matter and discussion.

We don't agree on this one; Feudalism (land for military service) is fundamentally a medieval (postclassic) developement.

It only got into the Eastern Roman Empire ("Byzantine" for some) as late as the XI century (Pronoia).

I would really appreciate more information on this matter and discussion too.

 

It would appear that land granting was part of Roman thought as they conquered lands. Did not the Romans grant land in strategic areas (usually along the rivers) to military people? A condition of the grant was to guard and defend the rivers (their highways) and when called to duty, they must return to their military group? They could settle the area but had duties to the Empire.

 

As for Roman agricultural legislation, I found the following book intriguing. Agriculture and agricultural practice in Roman law / Robert J. Buck. Publisher Wiesbaden : F. Steiner, 1983.

 

The similarities between the old Roman laws and the conditions set down by the Crown for land grants under Soccage did not go unnoticed.

[ASCLEPIADES]

It would appear that land granting was part of Roman thought as they conquered lands. Did not the Romans grant land in strategic areas (usually along the rivers) to military people? A condition of the grant was to guard and defend the rivers (their highways) and when called to duty, they must return to their military group? They could settle the area but had duties to the Empire.

 

As for Roman agricultural legislation, I found the following book intriguing. Agriculture and agricultural practice in Roman law / Robert J. Buck. Publisher Wiesbaden : F. Steiner, 1983.

 

The similarities between the old Roman laws and the conditions set down by the Crown for land grants under Soccage did not go unnoticed.

A detailed explanation of medieval law is far beyond the scope of both my knowledge and this thread.

Basically, a wholly developed Feudal system is characterized by a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords (exercising administrative and judicial functions cutomarily performed by centralized governments in exchange for their protective obligations), vassals (under military and financial obligations for their lords), and fiefs, its fundamental land tenure mechanism; the lord's grant in return for a form of allegiance. (From Enciclopaedia Britannica and en.Wikipedia)

The British soccage is a good example.

"Wholly developed" is virtually equivalent to Low Middle Ages western Europe.

 

Now, Roman republican land tenure was explicitely not feudal. No similarity with the soccage system at all. The Senate and latter the Emperors were always extremely reluctant in granting lands; in fact, that was one of the main mechanisms for the Repubic's Civil Wars and ulterior demise. Conquered territories were Ager Publicus, Common Land.

 

Here comes Oskar Seyffert, Dictionary of Classical Antiquities, pg. 17-18:

"The Romans made a practice, upon every new acquisition of land, of adding a part of it, usually a third, to the domain. So far as this land was under culture, por

Edited July 13, 2008 by ASCLEPIADES

[ASCLEPIADES]

FROM THE PREVIOUS POST:

 

Now, the progression of Roman conquests led to the developement of the colonatus system, a direct antecedent for medieval Feudalism; ibid, pg. 151:

 

"It was an old custom in Italy to send out colonies for the purpose of securing new conquests. The Romans, ac